I have seen several videos on youtube lately where the glider pilot holds the tow release handle during all parts tow. I've been told it is taught this way by some in the UK. Sorry to pick on you folks on the other side of the pond as I love your country and can't wait to come over and glide with you in the next few years. ;)

It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is a recipe for disaster eventually.

We have all hit big bumps and turbulence down low on tow. Why risk accidentally pulling the release at 50ft or 100ft in the air? If you are saying it is so that you can immediately pull the handle if something goes bad on tow, it might not be a good enough reason due to the risks of a accidental release. Keep your hand on your knee or the flaps handle right next to the release and I bet you can pull it just as quickly and you don't have to worry about messing up a perfectly good tow down low. Am I missing something here?

Your thoughts? This just seems like a big safety mistake and I would hate for people who see these videos and then think it is the right and correct thing to do.

Have fun and fly safe,
Bruno - B4
www.youtube.com/bviv

On Friday, October 4, 2013 12:36:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I have seen several videos on youtube lately where the glider pilot holds the tow release handle during all parts tow. I've been told it is taught this way by some in the UK. Sorry to pick on you folks on the other side of the pond as I love your country and can't wait to come over and glide with you in the next few years. ;)
>
>
>
> It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is a recipe for disaster eventually.
>
>
>
> We have all hit big bumps and turbulence down low on tow. Why risk accidentally pulling the release at 50ft or 100ft in the air? If you are saying it is so that you can immediately pull the handle if something goes bad on tow, it might not be a good enough reason due to the risks of a accidental release. Keep your hand on your knee or the flaps handle right next to the release and I bet you can pull it just as quickly and you don't have to worry about messing up a perfectly good tow down low. Am I missing something here?
>
>
>
> Your thoughts? This just seems like a big safety mistake and I would hate for people who see these videos and then think it is the right and correct thing to do.
>
>
>
> Have fun and fly safe,
>
> Bruno - B4
>
> www.youtube.com/bviv

Or you can keep you hands on those pesky spoilers?

JP

> Or you can keep you hands on those pesky spoilers?
> JP

In an ASW19, 20 or 27 it is common practice (even mentioned in the POH) to start an aero tow with partially deployed spoilers to help keep ailerons effective at low speeds. At around 30 knots put in spoilers and move flaps from 2 to 4. Works great. :)

Bruno - B4

We in the UK are not taught to hold the release throughout an
aerotow. Have there been reports of inadvertent releases on
aerotow from this? Cable releases are not hair-trigger.

Especially for winch launches we are taught to "start the launch
with the hand on the release" . The following AAIB report is
relevant to that:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Schempp-
Hirth%20Nimbus-3%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf

John Galloway







At 16:36 04 October 2013, wrote:
>I have seen several videos on youtube lately where the glider
pilot holds
>t=
>he tow release handle during all parts tow. I've been told it is
taught
>th=
>is way by some in the UK. Sorry to pick on you folks on the
other side of
>=
>the pond as I love your country and can't wait to come over
and glide with
>=
>you in the next few years. ;) =20
>
>It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is a
recipe for
>disa=
>ster eventually.
>
>We have all hit big bumps and turbulence down low on tow.
Why risk
>accident=
>ally pulling the release at 50ft or 100ft in the air? If you are
saying
>it=
> is so that you can immediately pull the handle if something
goes bad on
>to=
>w, it might not be a good enough reason due to the risks of a
accidental
>re=
>lease. Keep your hand on your knee or the flaps handle right
next to the
>r=
>elease and I bet you can pull it just as quickly and you don't
have to
>worr=
>y about messing up a perfectly good tow down low. Am I
missing something
>he=
>re?
>
>Your thoughts? This just seems like a big safety mistake and I
would hate
>f=
>or people who see these videos and then think it is the right
and correct
>t=
>hing to do.
>
>Have fun and fly safe,
>Bruno - B4
>www.youtube.com/bviv
>

>
> In an ASW19, 20 or 27 it is common practice (even mentioned in the POH) to start an aero tow with partially deployed spoilers to help keep ailerons effective at low speeds. At around 30 knots put in spoilers and move flaps from 2 to 4. Works great. :)

Sounds OK in theory. An engineer probably came up with the POH entry, but...
Who has time to look at the airspeed, look at the runway, tow plane and keep it all straight plus close spoilers and change flaps at a certain speed? With our clubs 260 HP towplane it all happens fast! Ailerons seem to work fine in about 3 seconds.

The UK recommendation is to hold the release during the start of a winch launch, due to the exceptionally short time available to avoid disaster by releasing if a wing is going down and you cannot prevent it with aileron. While this may not apply to an aerotow launch it is likely that pilots trained on the winch and flying unflapped gliders would do the same for an aerotow launch. I would expect pilots to take their hand off the release once comfortably clear of the ground. I have not heard of an inadvertent release.

On Friday, October 4, 2013 1:37:45 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
> > > In an ASW19, 20 or 27 it is common practice (even mentioned in the POH) to start an aero tow with partially deployed spoilers to help keep ailerons effective at low speeds. At around 30 knots put in spoilers and move flaps from 2 to 4. Works great. :) Sounds OK in theory. An engineer probably came up with the POH entry, but... Who has time to look at the airspeed, look at the runway, tow plane and keep it all straight plus close spoilers and change flaps at a certain speed? With our clubs 260 HP towplane it all happens fast! Ailerons seem to work fine in about 3 seconds.

I do it all the time and have for many years. When aileron control is solid, close and lock the spoilers, then move flaps to tow position. In the '28, I skip the flap step obviously. 19 and 20 have big ailerons that work pretty quickly. Not so with 27.
If things start to go wrong, release the spoiler handle and pull the release.
No need to look at airspeed.
Not everybody has an overpowered tug.
UH

At 17:44 04 October 2013, waremark wrote:
>The UK recommendation is to hold the release during the start of a winch
>la=
>unch, due to the exceptionally short time available to avoid disaster by
>re=
>leasing if a wing is going down and you cannot prevent it with aileron.
>Whi=
>le this may not apply to an aerotow launch it is likely that pilots
>trained=
> on the winch and flying unflapped gliders would do the same for an
>aerotow=
> launch. I would expect pilots to take their hand off the release once
>comf=
>ortably clear of the ground. I have not heard of an inadvertent release.
>


The problem is on schemp gliders if the right wing goes down and you us
full
left stick and can't get the wing to lift you now can't get your hand to
the
release the next thing is an accident .
It happens very fast and before you say "won't happen to me" I know of a
fighter pilot and current glider pilot who cartwheeled a ventus .
My solution is 6 inch of parachute cord fastened round the release that I
can
hold loosely for those first 50feet or so .the transition from wing low to
crash
is so fast there is no time for anything .
Jon may

Couple of things;

1) THIS THREAD IS ABOUT YOUR HAND ON THE >>RELEASE<<! NOT ON THE SPOILERS! Can we all say "oops"?

2) I had a PTT when I had my hand on the release. Never again.

3) That being said (#2 above) I saw a friend get in trouble on tow and couldn't find the release handle due to G forces (scratch one glider). So I came up with a fairly long lanyard that goes from the release knob to my wrist. In this way small movements of my hand won't impact the release but, in an emergency, a half way hands up gesture of "you're under arrest" will release the tow. Luckily I have never used this. Needless to say I use the knob for a non-emergency releases. Here is a link to my Mark 1 version (Bumper type model numbering), I don't have a shot of Mark II with its adjustable palm knob and black nylon webbing. http://aviation.derosaweb.net/images/releaselandyard.JPG

My $0.02.

- John

On Friday, October 4, 2013 1:30:46 PM UTC-4, John Galloway wrote:
> We in the UK are not taught to hold the release throughout an
>
> aerotow. Have there been reports of inadvertent releases on
>
> aerotow from this? Cable releases are not hair-trigger.
>

Glad to hear it, and yes, respectively. http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/bwjoq355hxidzvi3fw1ysdb01/D10042013120000.pdf

T8

On Friday, October 4, 2013 10:36:19 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> I have seen several videos on youtube lately where the glider pilot holds the tow release handle during all parts tow. I've been told it is taught this way by some in the UK. Sorry to pick on you folks on the other side of the pond as I love your country and can't wait to come over and glide with you in the next few years. ;)
>
>
>
> It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is a recipe for disaster eventually.
>
>
>
> We have all hit big bumps and turbulence down low on tow. Why risk accidentally pulling the release at 50ft or 100ft in the air? If you are saying it is so that you can immediately pull the handle if something goes bad on tow, it might not be a good enough reason due to the risks of a accidental release. Keep your hand on your knee or the flaps handle right next to the release and I bet you can pull it just as quickly and you don't have to worry about messing up a perfectly good tow down low. Am I missing something here?
>
>
>
> Your thoughts? This just seems like a big safety mistake and I would hate for people who see these videos and then think it is the right and correct thing to do.
>
>
>
> Have fun and fly safe,
>
> Bruno - B4
>
> www.youtube.com/bviv

A few years ago I flew with a visiting UK pilot who was looking for a field checkout. I noticed he held onto the release as we climbs away. As was typical, part of the tow was over uninviting terrain. A small flying insect took the opportunity to land on his left ear. In an attempt to slap the bug he inadvertently pulled the release and missed the bug chasing it into his ear canal - double fail. Now he was off tow and low over unlandable terrain with a live bug in his ear. Does that count as 3 incidents in an accident chain?

I thought, Hmmm, GREAT distraction - lets see how he handles it.

To his credit, he thermalled us out of trouble all the while making weird vocalizations and trying to dislodge the bug. After he gave up attacking his ear, the bug "bugged out". The pilot got his checkout and, in the debrief, announced he had decided holding the release during aero tow wasn't such a great idea.

*I* have the time.

Of course, if I had to:

1) Look at the airspeed.
2) Look at the runway.
3) Look at the tow plane.
4) Keep it all straight.

ad nauseum, I'd probably be reading the checklist as I careened merrily down
through the weeds.

Do you also feel that the nose hook is better than the CG hook because it
helps keep you straight on tow?

What ever happened to situational awareness and simply flying the freakin'
aircraft?

I'm wearing my flame suit, but I believe in what I said. There seem to be
simply too many "pilots" who want it all done for them electronically or by
rote. C'mon guys and gals. Learn to do it right and you'll enjoy it so
much more.

"Soartech" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>> In an ASW19, 20 or 27 it is common practice (even mentioned in the POH)
>> to start an aero tow with partially deployed spoilers to help keep
>> ailerons effective at low speeds. At around 30 knots put in spoilers and
>> move flaps from 2 to 4. Works great. :)
>
> Sounds OK in theory. An engineer probably came up with the POH entry,
> but...
> Who has time to look at the airspeed, look at the runway, tow plane and
> keep it all straight plus close spoilers and change flaps at a certain
> speed? With our clubs 260 HP towplane it all happens fast! Ailerons seem
> to work fine in about 3 seconds.
>

Sounds like a decent idea, John, but I think you should actually try it at
least once in flight. The act of raising your hand ala "stick 'em up" is
different than a straight back pull so I think you should see how it feels
and if it really works.

Intuitively, it looks like the gesture you mentioned would result in about a
45 degree upward pull on the release. Would the cable jam in its fairlead?

The release knob in my LAK is a fairly small disk, about a half inch (maybe
a bit more) in diameter and might be easy to miss in an emergency. I think
I'll give your rope idea a try for myself.

"JohnDeRosa" > wrote in message
...
Couple of things;

1) THIS THREAD IS ABOUT YOUR HAND ON THE >>RELEASE<<! NOT ON THE SPOILERS!
Can we all say "oops"?

2) I had a PTT when I had my hand on the release. Never again.

3) That being said (#2 above) I saw a friend get in trouble on tow and
couldn't find the release handle due to G forces (scratch one glider). So I
came up with a fairly long lanyard that goes from the release knob to my
wrist. In this way small movements of my hand won't impact the release but,
in an emergency, a half way hands up gesture of "you're under arrest" will
release the tow. Luckily I have never used this. Needless to say I use the
knob for a non-emergency releases. Here is a link to my Mark 1 version
(Bumper type model numbering), I don't have a shot of Mark II with its
adjustable palm knob and black nylon webbing.
http://aviation.derosaweb.net/images/releaselandyard.JPG

My $0.02.

- John

On Friday, October 4, 2013 3:57:04 PM UTC-4, JohnDeRosa wrote:
> Couple of things; 1) THIS THREAD IS ABOUT YOUR HAND ON THE >>RELEASE<<! NOT ON THE SPOILERS! Can we all say "oops"? 2) I had a PTT when I had my hand on the release. Never again. 3) That being said (#2 above) I saw a friend get in trouble on tow and couldn't find the release handle due to G forces (scratch one glider). So I came up with a fairly long lanyard that goes from the release knob to my wrist. In this way small movements of my hand won't impact the release but, in an emergency, a half way hands up gesture of "you're under arrest" will release the tow. Luckily I have never used this. Needless to say I use the knob for a non-emergency releases. Here is a link to my Mark 1 version (Bumper type model numbering), I don't have a shot of Mark II with its adjustable palm knob and black nylon webbing. http://aviation.derosaweb.net/images/releaselandyard.JPG My $0.02. - John

The lanyard loop is a fairly old solution that, I understand resulted from Gerhard Waibel not being able to get to the release on a '20 at Eagle Field resulting in a crunch of sorts. Interestingly, the releases on all his following gliders are up on the left and easily seen and gripped.
For 19's and 20's and such, we make a loop out of about 24 inches of parachute cord that loops around the release handle. The pilot lays this across his left thigh, and the release is easily found and pulled if needed quickly.. Holding the loop with slack would present minimal risk of accidently releasing and yet provides the benefit of quick access.
People adding to other ships should consider what such a loop may interfere with when implementing.
I guard the release during the early part of ground launches, but stay away from it on aero tow.
Another voice heard from
UH

On Friday, October 4, 2013 11:30:46 AM UTC-6, John Galloway wrote:
> We in the UK are not taught to hold the release throughout an >
> aerotow. Have there been reports of inadvertent releases on >
> aerotow from this? Cable releases are not hair-trigger.
>
> > Especially for winch launches we are taught to "start the launch
> > with the hand on the release" . The following AAIB report is
> > relevant to that:
>
> > http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Schempp-Hirth%20Nimbus-3%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf
>
> John Galloway
>
Hi John and everyone else, thanks for the responses so far. As I stated in the title I am only talking about aero tows. What I don't want people to think is if it is the right way for a winch launch then it is the right way for aero tows. I completely agree on keeping the hand on during the first part of the winch launch. If you accidentally pull at 50 or even 100 feet you still have a lot more runway ahead than with most aero tows since on winches you get off the ground and up in a much shorter distance.

Getting back to the original topic, we are already seeing examples of stories in this thread of people who DID hold on to the release and had a low inadvertent release. The problem does exist and has caused accidents. Please keep your hand off the handle on an aero tow unless you have one of the extending lanyards that have been spoken of. I could not reach the release for the life of me in my Phoebus and so had the lanyard attached. It sat on my knee with my open hand on top of it during tow.

Take care and be safe,
Bruno - B4

Winch tow, hand on release? Not a good idea?
Jerk acceleration, from some slack or something in the line and you inadvertently pull the release.
Probably not too bad if still on the ground.

The accident report is not final from the recent Jacuma CA winch accident. Preliminary information is a Premature release at to low an altitude and to high an attitude.

Aero tow, I was giving a flight review and the pilot tried to hold his fist right in front of the 2-33 release, it was a bumpy tow and his hand was everywhere except near the release. We discussed the usefulness of that concept.

BT

On Friday, October 4, 2013 8:06:12 PM UTC-6, Bill T wrote:
> Winch tow, hand on release? Not a good idea?
>
> Jerk acceleration, from some slack or something in the line and you inadvertently pull the release.
>
> Probably not too bad if still on the ground.
>
>
>
> The accident report is not final from the recent Jacuma CA winch accident.. Preliminary information is a Premature release at to low an altitude and to high an attitude.
>
>
>
> Aero tow, I was giving a flight review and the pilot tried to hold his fist right in front of the 2-33 release, it was a bumpy tow and his hand was everywhere except near the release. We discussed the usefulness of that concept.
>
>
>
> BT

OK, I gotta jump in here. Keeping a hand on the release is SOP on winch launch. If the ground roll isn't perfectly straight and level, you have to release instantly.

A launch failure can happen anytime at any height on a winch launch and in itself doesn't cause accidents - provided the PIC is doing his job of flying the glider. Student pilots can expect an instructor to pull the release at any height and then be expected to land the glider safely.

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 19:06:12 -0700, Bill T wrote:

> Winch tow, hand on release? Not a good idea?
> Jerk acceleration, from some slack or something in the line and you
> inadvertently pull the release.
> Probably not too bad if still on the ground.
>
If that happens, would you really want to stay on?

If/when that happens to me the release gets pulled because:
(1) I don't want a large bight in the shock rope to wrap round my wheel
(2) I'd rather not subject my hook to the sort of snatch load a powerful
winch can apply.

> The accident report is not final from the recent Jacuma CA winch
> accident. Preliminary information is a Premature release at to low an
> altitude and to high an attitude.
>
This a good reason for the UK emphasis on a slow rotation into full climb
and not starting rotation until you have 150% of stall speed (50kts in
most gliders) and positive acceleration. It helps to ensure that while
you're low and slow you're not steep.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

At 02:06 05 October 2013, Bill T wrote:
>Winch tow, hand on release? Not a good idea?
>Jerk acceleration, from some slack or something in the line and you
>inadvertently pull the release.
>Probably not too bad if still on the ground.
>
>The accident report is not final from the recent Jacuma CA winch
accident.
>Preliminary information is a Premature release at to low an altitude and
to
>high an attitude.
>
>Aero tow, I was giving a flight review and the pilot tried to hold his
fist
>right in front of the 2-33 release, it was a bumpy tow and his hand was
>everywhere except near the release. We discussed the usefulness of that
>concept.
>
>BT

It is absolutely essential that hand contact with the release is maintained
from the time a cable is attached to the time until flight is achieved on a
winch launch. The wing drop/yaw/crash sequence is well documented and while
being able to operate the release quickly does nothing to prevent, only
mitigates the severity of the accident, it is nevertheless literally the
difference between life and death.
Inadvertently operating the release on a winch launch may prove
embarrassing, not operating the release if a wing drops may spare your
embarrassment by killing you.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Schempp-Hirth%20Nimbus-3%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf

Hey, I thought they were locked!

On Friday, October 4, 2013 12:46:52 PM UTC-4, Jp Stewart wrote:
> On Friday, October 4, 2013 12:36:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> > I have seen several videos on youtube lately where the glider pilot holds the tow release handle during all parts tow. I've been told it is taught this way by some in the UK. Sorry to pick on you folks on the other side of the pond as I love your country and can't wait to come over and glide with you in the next few years. ;)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is a recipe for disaster eventually.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > We have all hit big bumps and turbulence down low on tow. Why risk accidentally pulling the release at 50ft or 100ft in the air? If you are saying it is so that you can immediately pull the handle if something goes bad on tow, it might not be a good enough reason due to the risks of a accidental release. Keep your hand on your knee or the flaps handle right next to the release and I bet you can pull it just as quickly and you don't have to worry about messing up a perfectly good tow down low. Am I missing something here?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Your thoughts? This just seems like a big safety mistake and I would hate for people who see these videos and then think it is the right and correct thing to do.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Have fun and fly safe,
>
> >
>
> > Bruno - B4
>
> >
>
> > www.youtube.com/bviv
>
>
>
> Or you can keep you hands on those pesky spoilers?
>
>
>
> JP

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:53:16 AM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

> http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Schempp-Hirth%20Nimbus-3%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf

There are so many bonehead screw-up's in this report it makes one want to cry.

A few:

1. Not staging the glider so it points exactly at the winch.
2. A VERY long, slow, wobbly takeoff roll despite a 15kt headwind component..
3. A failure of the launch crew to stop the launch when a wing went down.
4. Not releasing when it was clear the ground roll wasn't precisely normal.

A dry Nimbus 3 launching into a 15 knot wind would likely have aileron control BEFORE the roll began and should have been airborne in around one second after rolling about a glider length. Obvious point: Once airborne, there's no danger of dragging a wing.

At least you Brits are good at writing accident reports.

At 15:34 06 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:53:16 AM UTC-6, Don
Johnstone wrote:
>
>>
>http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?
file=3D/Schempp-Hirth%20Nimbus-3=
>%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf
>
>There are so many bonehead screw-up's in this report it
makes one want to
>c=
>ry.
>
>A few:
>
>1. Not staging the glider so it points exactly at the winch.
>2. A VERY long, slow, wobbly takeoff roll despite a 15kt
headwind
>component=
>..
>3. A failure of the launch crew to stop the launch when a wing
went down.
>4. Not releasing when it was clear the ground roll wasn't
precisely normal.
>
>A dry Nimbus 3 launching into a 15 knot wind would likely
have aileron
>cont=
>rol BEFORE the roll began and should have been airborne in
around one
>secon=
>d after rolling about a glider length. Obvious point: Once
airborne,
>there=
>'s no danger of dragging a wing.
>
>At least you Brits are good at writing accident reports.
>

This tragic accident happened to one of my club colleagues.
With reference to the comments above:

1) There is nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that the glider
was not pointing at the winch. It was situated 30m from the
position that the cables had been drawn to and so the cable
would have been pulled over to the glider. It may have been
better to point the glider away from the winch and somewhat
towards the line of the cable. (Better still to have minimized
the bow in the cable by positioning the glider closer to the cable
and pulling the cable as straight as possible.)

2)There is nothing in the report to suggest "a very long, slow,
wobbly takeoff roll". I can report from personal experience of
many launches from the winch and professional winch-driver
involved that this is a very powerful rapidly accelerating winch.
The AAIB report makes direct reference to the fact that the
winch was operated correctly according to the manufacturer.
The cable released at 4 seconds from the start of the launch
with the glider already airborne and unrecoverable so that
leaves no time for a takeoff roll as characterised above.

3) There is no suggestion in the AAIB report of a "failure" by the
ground crew to stop the launch. This point is specifically
addressed:

"On this occasion both the wing holder and the launch signaller
saw the wing touch the ground but events then developed
quickly, so it is unlikely that either of them had time to consider
and make a ‘stop’ signal. Therefore, the responsibility to
release the cable would have to rest with the pilot"

4) Agreed - to release the cable as soon as the wing cannot be
kept level is vital.

John Galloway

At 20:08 06 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
>At 15:34 06 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>>On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:53:16 AM UTC-6, Don
>Johnstone wrote:
>>
>>>
>>http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?
>file=3D/Schempp-Hirth%20Nimbus-3=
>>%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf
>>
>>There are so many bonehead screw-up's in this report it
>makes one want to
>>c=
>>ry.
>>
>>A few:
>>
>>1. Not staging the glider so it points exactly at the winch.
>>2. A VERY long, slow, wobbly takeoff roll despite a 15kt
>headwind
>>component=
>>..
>>3. A failure of the launch crew to stop the launch when a wing
>went down.
>>4. Not releasing when it was clear the ground roll wasn't
>precisely normal.
>>
>>A dry Nimbus 3 launching into a 15 knot wind would likely
>have aileron
>>cont=
>>rol BEFORE the roll began and should have been airborne in
>around one
>>secon=
>>d after rolling about a glider length. Obvious point: Once
>airborne,
>>there=
>>'s no danger of dragging a wing.
>>
>>At least you Brits are good at writing accident reports.
>>
>
>This tragic accident happened to one of my club colleagues.
>With reference to the comments above:
>
>1) There is nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that the glider
>was not pointing at the winch. It was situated 30m from the
>position that the cables had been drawn to and so the cable
>would have been pulled over to the glider. It may have been
>better to point the glider away from the winch and somewhat
>towards the line of the cable. (Better still to have minimized
>the bow in the cable by positioning the glider closer to the cable
>and pulling the cable as straight as possible.)
>
>2)There is nothing in the report to suggest "a very long, slow,
>wobbly takeoff roll". I can report from personal experience of
>many launches from the winch and professional winch-driver
>involved that this is a very powerful rapidly accelerating winch.
>The AAIB report makes direct reference to the fact that the
>winch was operated correctly according to the manufacturer.
>The cable released at 4 seconds from the start of the launch
>with the glider already airborne and unrecoverable so that
>leaves no time for a takeoff roll as characterised above.
>
>3) There is no suggestion in the AAIB report of a "failure" by the
>ground crew to stop the launch. This point is specifically
>addressed:
>
>"On this occasion both the wing holder and the launch signaller
>saw the wing touch the ground but events then developed
>quickly, so it is unlikely that either of them had time to consider
>and make a ‘stop’ signal. Therefore, the responsibility to
>release the cable would have to rest with the pilot"
>
>4) Agreed - to release the cable as soon as the wing cannot be
>kept level is vital.
>
>John Galloway
>
All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of
accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come up
with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom and
requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand
should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a month
back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the glider
was written off.
What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this earth
is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release, to
mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.
>

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:08:30 PM UTC-6, John Galloway wrote:
> At 15:34 06 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:53:16 AM UTC-6, Don
>
> Johnstone wrote:
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?
>
> file=3D/Schempp-Hirth%20Nimbus-3=
>
> >%20glider%20G-EENN%2006-13.pdf
>
> >
>
> >There are so many bonehead screw-up's in this report it
>
> makes one want to
>
> >c=
>
> >ry.
>
> >
>
> >A few:
>
> >
>
> >1. Not staging the glider so it points exactly at the winch.
>
> >2. A VERY long, slow, wobbly takeoff roll despite a 15kt
>
> headwind
>
> >component=
>
> >..
>
> >3. A failure of the launch crew to stop the launch when a wing
>
> went down.
>
> >4. Not releasing when it was clear the ground roll wasn't
>
> precisely normal.
>
> >
>
> >A dry Nimbus 3 launching into a 15 knot wind would likely
>
> have aileron
>
> >cont=
>
> >rol BEFORE the roll began and should have been airborne in
>
> around one
>
> >secon=
>
> >d after rolling about a glider length. Obvious point: Once
>
> airborne,
>
> >there=
>
> >'s no danger of dragging a wing.
>
> >
>
> >At least you Brits are good at writing accident reports.
>
> >
>
>
>
> This tragic accident happened to one of my club colleagues.
>
> With reference to the comments above:
>
>
>
> 1) There is nothing in the AAIB report to suggest that the glider
>
> was not pointing at the winch. It was situated 30m from the
>
> position that the cables had been drawn to and so the cable
>
> would have been pulled over to the glider. It may have been
>
> better to point the glider away from the winch and somewhat
>
> towards the line of the cable. (Better still to have minimized
>
> the bow in the cable by positioning the glider closer to the cable
>
> and pulling the cable as straight as possible.)
>
>
>
> 2)There is nothing in the report to suggest "a very long, slow,
>
> wobbly takeoff roll". I can report from personal experience of
>
> many launches from the winch and professional winch-driver
>
> involved that this is a very powerful rapidly accelerating winch.
>
> The AAIB report makes direct reference to the fact that the
>
> winch was operated correctly according to the manufacturer.
>
> The cable released at 4 seconds from the start of the launch
>
> with the glider already airborne and unrecoverable so that
>
> leaves no time for a takeoff roll as characterised above.
>
>
>
> 3) There is no suggestion in the AAIB report of a "failure" by the
>
> ground crew to stop the launch. This point is specifically
>
> addressed:
>
>
>
> "On this occasion both the wing holder and the launch signaller
>
> saw the wing touch the ground but events then developed
>
> quickly, so it is unlikely that either of them had time to consider
>
> and make a ‘stop’ signal. Therefore, the responsibility to
>
> release the cable would have to rest with the pilot"
>
>
>
> 4) Agreed - to release the cable as soon as the wing cannot be
>
> kept level is vital.
>
>
>
> John Galloway

I'm not basing this entirely on the AAIB report - I can read between the lines and I have other sources. No, the AAIB didn't address those issues although they certainly should have.

Instead, they ignored a wealth of obvious facts and blamed the accident on the release position which has worked just fine in literally millions of releases. Even so, if the owner, or a maintenance shop, thought there was a problem, adding a flexible release extension is SOP. Such an extension is even shown in Figure 5 with the release T-handle BEHIND the stick. Figure 6 showing a 'pilot' with his RIGHT hand blocked from reaching a release is grossly misleading. I hope the AAIB doesn't risk its reputation by presenting this argument in court.

Independent sources the glider was not pointing at the winch and, John, even you suggest that's acceptable. I say the rope must be dead straight and the glider pointed exactly at the winch - no exceptions. This accident is a great example of why.

I've been officially involved in very similar accidents where the launch crew had far less time yet DID stop a launch in time to save a pilot who failed to release. Your crew had plenty of time to stop the launch. If the signaling system didn't permit such a timely signal, that's yet another problem that needs to be addressed.

Clearly the acceleration was VERY slow and the wing did drag so the roll was wobbly. Rolling 29m (95 feet) into a 15 knot headwind component proves it. A dry N3 with flaps set for winch launch lifts off below 33 knots so with the headwind, the winch only had to add 18 knots which requires less than one G for less than one second over a distance of less than 20 feet.

All winches, even a Skylaunch, have throttles so the phrase "very powerful rapidly accelerating winch" is meaningless. Acceleration depends only on the throttle setting.

So, what could have prevented this accident?
In order of importance:

1. Faster acceleration. Get a glider airborne and climbing before a wing can drop.

2. Insist every launch have the rope exactly straight and the glider pointed exactly at the winch.

3. Better communications. Maybe someone at the launch point should have a thumb hovering over a button that lights a big, bright "EMERGENCY STOP" sign in the winch cab. Better yet, have that button trigger the guillotine.

This accident report will serve as a classroom example for many years including a "can you find the screw-ups?" exercise. If you suspended the Imperial arrogance long enough, you might hear the groans and forehead slapping from the Continent and around the world - and if you listened to what they're saying you might start improving your miserable accident record.

Not a single instructor, check pilot or examiner I flew with in England and Germany ever suggested/required holding the release on a winch launch. I was always told to keep my hand close, but not wrapped around the knob.

Worked well every time.

At 02:06 05 October 2013, Bill T wrote:
>Winch tow, hand on release? Not a good idea?

Asking a question? Making a statement? Sarcasm? What?

>Jerk acceleration from some slack or something in the line and you
>inadvertently pull the release.

HAD VERY MANY WINCH LAUNCHES?

All Out in my country means you take up the slack and launch. What slack
then?

"Or something else in the line". Like what, Gremlins tight rope walking?

HAVE MUCH WINCH EXPERIENCE?

What DOES cause slack in the ground roll or climb-

1. Pretty rare to have a tail wind gradient change as you climb or no wind
create momentary slack rope, but it happens.

So what? Then the trained winch driver gives more kts. Enough acceleration
to cause so severe a jerk and a premature detach because you were holding
the release? Pretty hard to fathom.

2. Poor pilot winch technique or not timely enough reactions, cause your
own slack, line catches up and a hard jerk? Not so. Thousands of feet of
line are very nice at cushioning shock, if not, maybe you should be
releasing and start over anyway.

3. EXPERIENCED winch pilots know instead, that with even a momentary slack,
usually a chute does you a favor, opens and an auto back release on a Tost
hook. If not, my left palm is right there on the left knee and left pinky
on the yellow knob for as fast as I can pull.

4. Hit severe sink on the way up, some slack (usually just a bow in the
line), recover as above or abort. Where's the jerk?

5. Novice winch driver or one with a lead foot on the accelerator and no
line tension control, brief cough in the motor, too fast a start can cause
slack in a stretched elastic line or break a weak link or both. Imagine all
the possible senarios. Prudence says immediately release and land straight
ahead, not react with a harder pull, steeper rotation to risk stall or back
release at a high AOA, or possibly break the weak link at not enough meters
high to have time, airspeed and elevator authority to aim back at the
ground and flare. (Maybe this is the type of situation where one can get so
excited and pull whatever he is holding on to.)

My hand (or part of it) is on (or near) the let-go mechanism.

>I'm not basing this entirely on the AAIB report - I can read between the
>li=
>nes and I have other sources. No, the AAIB didn't address those issues
>alt=
>hough they certainly should have. =20
>
>Instead, they ignored a wealth of obvious facts and blamed the accident
on
>=
>the release position which has worked just fine in literally millions of
>re=
>leases. Even so, if the owner, or a maintenance shop, thought there was
a
>=
>problem, adding a flexible release extension is SOP. Such an extension
is
>=
>even shown in Figure 5 with the release T-handle BEHIND the stick.
Figure
>=
>6 showing a 'pilot' with his RIGHT hand blocked from reaching a release
is
>=
>grossly misleading. I hope the AAIB doesn't risk its reputation by
>present=
>ing this argument in court.

OK, try sitting in a Schemp Hirth or even and ASW 17/19/20 with the stick
full to the left and try finding the release knob if you do not actually
have your hand on it. The time you have to realise you have a problem and
react is very short, trying to find the release will take longer than the
time you have.
>
>Independent sources the glider was not pointing at the winch and, John,
>eve=
>n you suggest that's acceptable. I say the rope must be dead straight
and
>=
>the glider pointed exactly at the winch - no exceptions. This accident is
>a=
> great example of why.

Actually the glider should point down the direction if the initial cable
run, of course that should be the same as the direct line to the winch.
>
>I've been officially involved in very similar accidents where the launch
>cr=
>ew had far less time yet DID stop a launch in time to save a pilot who
>fail=
>ed to release. Your crew had plenty of time to stop the launch. If the
>si=
>gnaling system didn't permit such a timely signal, that's yet another
>probl=
>em that needs to be addressed.=20

Not so, anyone with any experience of winch launching would know that the
time taken for a stop signal to be sent, received by the winch driver and
reacted on is way more than the time taken for the event you are trying to
prevent being over.
>
>Clearly the acceleration was VERY slow and the wing did drag so the roll
>wa=
>s wobbly. Rolling 29m (95 feet) into a 15 knot headwind component proves
>i=
>t. A dry N3 with flaps set for winch launch lifts off below 33 knots so
>wi=
>th the headwind, the winch only had to add 18 knots which requires less
>tha=
>n one G for less than one second over a distance of less than 20 feet.
=20
>
>All winches, even a Skylaunch, have throttles so the phrase "very
powerful
>=
>rapidly accelerating winch" is meaningless. Acceleration depends only on
>t=
>he throttle setting.
>
>So, what could have prevented this accident?
>In order of importance:
>
>1. Faster acceleration. Get a glider airborne and climbing before a wing
>c=
>an drop.

Wing drop is not the cause of the problem, it is a symptom. The primary
problem is yaw and increased acceleration will exacerbate this.
>
>2. Insist every launch have the rope exactly straight and the glider
>pointe=
>d exactly at the winch.
>
>3. Better communications. Maybe someone at the launch point should have
a
>=
>thumb hovering over a button that lights a big, bright "EMERGENCY STOP"
>sig=
>n in the winch cab. Better yet, have that button trigger the guillotine.
>
>This accident report will serve as a classroom example for many years
>inclu=
>ding a "can you find the screw-ups?" exercise. If you suspended the
>Imperi=
>al arrogance long enough, you might hear the groans and forehead slapping
>f=
>rom the Continent and around the world - and if you listened to what
>they'r=
>e saying you might start improving your miserable accident record.

Nothing like a bit of ignorance to provoke a complete misunderstanding of
reality. To a certain extent this type of accident is an operating hazard
which can be mitigated by making sure that at the very least a pilot is
immediately able to terminate the launch. To suggest that a chain of people
outside the aircraft can react in time to effect the chain of events, given
the total time over which the situation becomes irrecoverable, shows an
incredible depth of ignorance.
I have absolutely no doubt that over the years pilots in the UK have
avoided death or injury by having their hand on the release from the time
the cable is attached until complete control is gained in the launch. No,
it does not work every time, you have to actually pull it when it goes
wrong but part of the problem is that it may not be immediately apparent
that it is going wrong until it is to late for anything other than
mitigation.
The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your life,
to me that is a complete no brainer.
>

Re winch launching. You guy's might like to check out the very
useful Safe winching leaflet and associated information put out by
the BGA after much thought and refinement of the process's. This
has resulted in a significant reduction in the number of
accidents/injury's in the UK from winch launching.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.htm

Regards

Andy

Re winch launching. You guy's might like to check out the very
useful Safe winching leaflet and associated information put out by
the BGA after much thought and refinement of the process's. This
has resulted in a significant reduction in the number of
accidents/injury's in the UK from winch launching.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.htm

Regards

Andy

Re winch launching. You guy's might like to check out the very
useful Safe winching leaflet and associated information put out by
the BGA after much thought and refinement of the process's. This
has resulted in a significant reduction in the number of
accidents/injury's in the UK from winch launching.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.htm

Regards

Andy

> The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your life,
> to me that is a complete no brainer.
>

Thanks all for the good thoughts and ideas. I just want to make sure everyone remembers the title of this topic and it explicitly stated during aero tows. It is fine that people are talking about winch tows too but please don't confuse the two. They are separate types of operations and require different flying methods to stay as safe as possible. Keep your hand off the release during aero tows.

Thanks,
Bruno - B4

Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY Soggy 16:16 07 October 2013,
wrote:
>> The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your
>life=
>,
>> to me that is a complete no brainer.
> >
>
>Thanks all for the good thoughts and ideas. I just want to make sure
>everyo=
>ne remembers the title of this topic and it explicitly stated during aero
>t=
>ows. It is fine that people are talking about winch tows too but please
>don=
>'t confuse the two. They are separate types of operations and require
>diffe=
>rent flying methods to stay as safe as possible. Keep your hand off the
>rel=
>ease during aero tows.
>
>Thanks,
>Bruno - B4
>

At 16:16 07 October 2013, wrote:
>> The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your
>life=
>,
>> to me that is a complete no brainer.
> >
>
>Thanks all for the good thoughts and ideas. I just want to make sure
>everyo=
>ne remembers the title of this topic and it explicitly stated during aero
>t=
>ows. It is fine that people are talking about winch tows too but please
>don=
>'t confuse the two. They are separate types of operations and require
>diffe=
>rent flying methods to stay as safe as possible. Keep your hand off the
>rel=
>ease during aero tows.
>
>Thanks,
>Bruno - B4
>

Yes, it is OK to do that. I've done it a dozen or some times when the tow pilot came to retrieve me and there wasn't anyone to run the wing. It's never been a problem for me, even with a CG equipped ship.

-John, Q3


On Monday, October 7, 2013 2:30:59 PM UTC-4, John Marsh wrote:
> Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
> tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
> the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY Soggy

On Mon, 07 Oct 2013 18:30:59 +0000, John Marsh
> wrote:

>Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
>tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
>the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY

Depends on the glider.
For probably 95 percent of the gliders you are correct.

But for instance the AS 22-2 (forerunner if the ASH-25) has absolutely
no aileron control on the first 200 ft of the ground roll, so in most
cases it drops a wing. Since it is usually flown with full water , the
wing tip hits hard and it takes some time to pick the wing up again.

On the other hand, it's got a a tail load of about 120 lbs on the tail
wheel, so it doesn't have the slightest tendency to ground loop.
And with a wing loading of 10.5 lbs / sqft it's not going to take of
inadvertedly either.

So during an aerotow it is possible and safe to pick up the wing
again. In this special glider.

Winch launch is a completely different animal though.

Cheers
Andreas

On Monday, October 7, 2013 12:30:59 PM UTC-6, John Marsh wrote:
> Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
>
> tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
>
> the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY Soggy 16:16 07 October 2013,
>
> wrote:
>
> >> The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your
>
> >life=
>
> >,
>
> >> to me that is a complete no brainer.
>
> > >
>
Lol, Love your enthusiasm John. I promise it is possible to use the release lever without having to hold on to it the entire tow and put yourself in possible danger of an inadvertent release. Of course you release if you drop a wing and can't raise it safely on aero tow. That doesn't mean you need to keep your hand on the thing. In my glider (ASW27) I have my hand on the spoiler to start and then move to flaps and then move to my knee so it is close to the release in case I need to pull early. I can move the hand to the release at any point.

Bruno - B4

Same for me in my LAK-17a except that I lock the spoilers before hookup.
Hand on the flaps which are at negative until I have aileron control and
move the flaps down to thermal position. Hand stays on flap lever (very
close to release) until safely airborne.

I have wheels at the 15 meter tips, at 18 meters, the tips are angled
upwards such that they're parallel with the ground when a "tip" is on the
ground.

We stage on a very wide taxiway with the nose pointed at the taxiway/runway
intersection, maybe 10-15 degrees off runway heading. If a wing is down
and the grass is approaching, we release.

I can't recall how I do it on ground launch since it's been 6 months since I
did one. I'm going back to the dry lake in Nevada for a ground launch
weekend in a couple of weeks and, if this thread is still alive then, I'll
report back.


> wrote in message
...
On Monday, October 7, 2013 12:30:59 PM UTC-6, John Marsh wrote:
> Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
>
> tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
>
> the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY Soggy 16:16 07 October 2013,
>
> wrote:
>
> >> The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your
>
> >life=
>
> >,
>
> >> to me that is a complete no brainer.
>
> > >
>
Lol, Love your enthusiasm John. I promise it is possible to use the release
lever without having to hold on to it the entire tow and put yourself in
possible danger of an inadvertent release. Of course you release if you
drop a wing and can't raise it safely on aero tow. That doesn't mean you
need to keep your hand on the thing. In my glider (ASW27) I have my hand on
the spoiler to start and then move to flaps and then move to my knee so it
is close to the release in case I need to pull early. I can move the hand to
the release at any point.

Bruno - B4

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

> All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of
>
> accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come up
>
> with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom and
>
> requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand
>
> should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a month
>
> back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the glider
>
> was written off.
>
> What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this earth
>
> is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release, to
>
> mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.
>
> >

The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:54:35 PM UTC-6, Terry Pitts wrote:
> Not a single instructor, check pilot or examiner I flew with in England and Germany ever suggested/required holding the release on a winch launch. I was always told to keep my hand close, but not wrapped around the knob.
>
>
>
> Worked well every time.

I think "touching but not gripping" is the best advice.

On Monday, October 7, 2013 2:24:08 AM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
OK, try sitting in a Schemp Hirth or even and ASW 17/19/20 with the stick
> full to the left and try finding the release knob if you do not actually
> have your hand on it. The time you have to realise you have a problem and
> react is very short, trying to find the release will take longer than the
> time you have.

If reaching the release is difficult, it gets an extension installed ASAP. (That a minor modification not requiring paperwork.) The really bonehead action is to continue flying a glider where the pilot can't reach the release. does that idea actually occur to anyone in the UK?



> Actually the glider should point down the direction if the initial cable
> run, of course that should be the same as the direct line to the winch.

Only the UK still seems to be using steel cable. Almost everyone else is using "plastic rope" (Dyneema) Plastic rope straightens out like a bowstring as soon as tension is applied so it's always in a "direct line to the winch" which means POINT THE GLIDER AT THE WINCH - NO EXCEPTIONS.


> Not so, anyone with any experience of winch launching would know that the
> time taken for a stop signal to be sent, received by the winch driver and
> reacted on is way more than the time taken for the event you are trying to
> prevent being over.

No one suggests the pilot shouldn't pull the release. But, clearly, in the case of the UK, that isn't working. You need a backup plan to stop the launch if the pilot doesn't act.

> Wing drop is not the cause of the problem, it is a symptom. The primary
> problem is yaw and increased acceleration will exacerbate this.

WHAT!! Acceleration causes wing drop? Causes yaw? That's as absurd as it gets.

> To a certain extent this type of accident is an operating hazard.

In aviation safety, this is one of the hazardous thought processes called "resignation".

Again, no one says a pilot shouldn't have a hand on the release and should pull it if the launch goes wrong but a fair question is, "How's that working out?"

Giving a skilled observer at the start point an option to instantly stop the launch if the pilot doesn't act would have saved this pilots life. FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO IT! Or, just ask the Germans.

The totally absurd aspect of this is the UK is has a longstanding problem with "cartwheel" accidents like this one. A problem not seen to anywhere near the same degree in the rest of the world. Yet, your response it to lecture everybody else on doing it your way.

At 17:34 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>On Monday, October 7, 2013 2:24:08 AM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
> OK, try sitting in a Schemp Hirth or even and ASW 17/19/20 with the
stick
>> full to the left and try finding the release knob if you do not
actually
>> have your hand on it. The time you have to realise you have a problem
and
>> react is very short, trying to find the release will take longer than
the
>> time you have.
>
>If reaching the release is difficult, it gets an extension installed
ASAP.
>=
> (That a minor modification not requiring paperwork.) The really bonehead
>a=
>ction is to continue flying a glider where the pilot can't reach the
>releas=
>e. does that idea actually occur to anyone in the UK?
>
>
I wish it were that simple. A change of this nature, to a critical control,
requires approval from EASA which in turn requires the TC Holder to
approve.
In all the gliders I fly I use a paracord loop which I loop round my wrist
and the release knob. As it is a modification to my hand it does not
require EASA approval.
I am not going to bother answering the rest of your points, I feel you have
proved your ignorance sufficiently.
As far as the UK is concerned starting a winch launch with the hand on the
release is not optional. As I have said before doing it can save your life,
it is a complete no brainer.

At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don
Johnstone wrote:
>
>> All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this
type of
Which is? Come on, lets hear it Bill! BTW it is not always
possible to launch straight into wind due to the layout of some
glider sites. Wing drops are usually caused by gusts, which are
usually not predictable. The only safe way of dealing with them
is to release as soon as the wing starts to drop and before it
touches the ground. Releasing under tension often requires a
good firm pull, so a good firm grip on the release knob (or an
extension cable if necessary) is essential.

Derek Copeland


>> accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one
has come up
>>
>> with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a
symptom and
>>
>> requires that the glider is released very early which is why
the hand
>>
>> should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my
club a month
>>
>> back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but
the glider
>>
>> was written off.
>>
>> What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on
this earth
>>
>> is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early
release, to
>>
>> mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.
>>
>> >
>
>The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone
else has.
>

Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record, what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the subject, I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
>
>> All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of
>>
>> accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come up
>>
>> with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom
and
>>
>> requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand
>>
>> should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month
>>
>> back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider
>>
>> was written off.
>>
>> What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth
>>
>> is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release, to
>>
>> mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.
>>
>> >
>
>The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.

>

Time for pogo sticks.

The idea of launching a glider by having someone run the wing originated with wooden gliders and quite low speeds for stall and aileron effectiveness. Those speeds have gradually crept up through the years, to the point that really nobody can run the wing of a modern glider, with waterballast, and anything less than 10 mph straight down the runway, to the point of aileron effectiveness. Mostly we hope that the wing runner lets go, with the aircraft in balanced position, and it picks up speed faster than one wing drops. That often isn't true.

For airtows the results are usually just some scraped gel coat; sometimes a collision with a runway light, and occasionally a ground loop. There have been accidents where wing down gliders hurt bystanders, the Tonopah 15 m nationals being the one I remember best.

Clearly, for winching, wing-down events are much more serious.

The answer: either retractable or disposable pogo sticks on the wingtips, or mid-wing. Something that keeps the wings level to 25 mph and then either drops off or retracts into the wing.

Reading the UK Nimbus 3 report, it would seem that a video link between winch driver and launch point would be a good idea, and quite cheap with current technology. It would cut a crucial second or so out of the abort-the-launch loop

John Cochrane

Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps be an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
>Bill,
>
>I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record, what
>authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you are
>so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals who
>have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.
>
>If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
>to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the subject, I
>will bow to your superior judgement.
>
>Regards,
>
>Justin
>
>
>At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>>On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
>>
>>> All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of
>>>
>>> accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
up
>>>
>>> with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom
>and
>>>
>>> requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand
>>>
>>> should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
>month
>>>
>>> back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
>glider
>>>
>>> was written off.
>>>
>>> What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
>earth
>>>
>>> is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
to
>>>
>>> mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.
>>>
>>> >
>>
>>The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.

>
>>
>
>

Useful document on the BGA website

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/documents/safeaerotowingleaflet.pdf

JC wrote:
> The answer: either retractable or disposable pogo sticks on the wingtips, or mid-wing. Something that keeps the wings level to 25 mph and then either drops off or retracts into the wing.

Along this line, many self-launchers have small in-line skate wheels on the wingtips so they can start with the wing already touching the runway. Perhaps a simple retrofit could save your gel-coat (or your life).
As for dropable pogo sticks, hang gliders that aerotow often use a 3 wheeled launch cart(with a wide stance)to keep the wing level until it flies away from the cart. No one wants to lift their sailplane into a cart so this won't work for us. :-)

Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
> Hi Justin,
>
> I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
> gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps be an
> expert.
>
> I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
> certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
> somewhat ironic.
>
> Terry Walsh
>
>
>
>
>
> At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
>> Bill,
>>
>> I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record, what
>> authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you are
>> so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals who
>> have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.
>>
>> If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
> opinions
>> to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the subject, I
>> will bow to your superior judgement.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Justin
>>
>>
>> At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>>> On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
>>>
>>>> All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of
>>>>
>>>> accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
> up
>>>>
>>>> with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom
>> and
>>>>
>>>> requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand
>>>>
>>>> should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
>> month
>>>>
>>>> back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
>> glider
>>>>
>>>> was written off.
>>>>
>>>> What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
>> earth
>>>>
>>>> is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
> to
>>>>
>>>> mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.
>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 8:44:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> Time for pogo sticks.
>
>
>
> The idea of launching a glider by having someone run the wing originated with wooden gliders and quite low speeds for stall and aileron effectiveness. Those speeds have gradually crept up through the years, to the point that really nobody can run the wing of a modern glider, with waterballast, and anything less than 10 mph straight down the runway, to the point of aileron effectiveness. Mostly we hope that the wing runner lets go, with the aircraft in balanced position, and it picks up speed faster than one wing drops.. That often isn't true.
>
>
>
> For airtows the results are usually just some scraped gel coat; sometimes a collision with a runway light, and occasionally a ground loop. There have been accidents where wing down gliders hurt bystanders, the Tonopah 15 m nationals being the one I remember best.
>
>
>
> Clearly, for winching, wing-down events are much more serious.
>
>
>
> The answer: either retractable or disposable pogo sticks on the wingtips, or mid-wing. Something that keeps the wings level to 25 mph and then either drops off or retracts into the wing.
>
>
>
> Reading the UK Nimbus 3 report, it would seem that a video link between winch driver and launch point would be a good idea, and quite cheap with current technology. It would cut a crucial second or so out of the abort-the-launch loop
>
>
>
> John Cochrane

John, wing-down events are indeed more serious for winch launch simply because of the CG hook and the large amount of energy being delivered to the glider by the winch. The best solution is one where wing drops don't happen at all - or are least extremely unlikely.

It's true that modern, heavy gliders have minimum aileron control speeds much higher than a wing runner can reach. Just as with aero tow, slow acceleration leaves a glider vulnerable to a wing drop. As with aero tow, reaching minimum control speed quickly is a very good thing.

The time for a glider on winch launch to reach aileron control speed from a standstill (Anywhere except the UK) is a second or less so how can a wing drop in that interval? Even in a crosswind, a glider can be balanced laterally so if the wing tip is simply released it will take two or three seconds for it to drop. Something has to cause it to drop or it won't happen.

A rare problem is a pilot unintentionally holding aileron input at the start of the roll. Control authority comes on fast that a wing may go down before a pilot realizes his error and backs off the aileron input. The solution is being careful to neutralize the ailerons before the roll starts.

Also rare (Again, outside the UK) is mis-aligned staging which results in the rope pulling the glider slightly sideways. This can start a wing down before aileron control speed is reached. The solution is to be careful to stage the glider so it points at the winch.

Strong gusts can be problem but the longer a glider wobbles along with minimal control authority, the greater the vulnerability to them.

Wing runners should be re-trained from what they learned with aero tow. Any attempt to hold on will be disastrous so they need to do a very "clean" release. They must also learn the art of balancing the wing rather than just holding it sort of level. They won't so much "run" the wing as take a very quick step or two.

Video is under serious consideration. As you say, a CCTV link is very cheap as are all sorts of data-links. I think one of the best uses is a simple data-link to send a "STOP" message to the winch operator. That message could be displayed in .2 seconds from when an observer at the launch point first sees a launch starting to go wrong and the rope cut with the guillotine in another .2 seconds stopping the launch.

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:59:50 AM UTC-6, Fred Bear wrote:
> Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.
>
>
>
> On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
>
> > Hi Justin,
>
> >
>
> > I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
>
> > gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps be an
>
> > expert.
>
> >
>
> > I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
>
> > certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
>
> > somewhat ironic.
>
> >
>
> > Terry Walsh
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
>
> >> Bill,
>
> >>
>
> >> I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record, what
>
> >> authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you are
>
> >> so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals who
>
> >> have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.
>
> >>
>
> >> If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
>
> > opinions
>
> >> to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the subject, I
>
> >> will bow to your superior judgement.
>
> >>
>
> >> Regards,
>
> >>
>
> >> Justin
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>
> >>> On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
>
> > up
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom
>
> >> and
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
>
> >> month
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
>
> >> glider
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> was written off.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
>
> >> earth
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
>
> > to
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >

What's ugly is death caused by incompetence.

On Monday, October 7, 2013 5:33:57 AM UTC-6, Andrew Henderson wrote:
> Re winch launching. You guy's might like to check out the very
>
> useful Safe winching leaflet and associated information put out by
>
> the BGA after much thought and refinement of the process's. This
>
> has resulted in a significant reduction in the number of
>
> accidents/injury's in the UK from winch launching.
>
>
>
> http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.htm
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Andy

Yes, a reduction in accidents to the point where you're now only one order of magnitude worse than the Germans instead of two.

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 12:53:26 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
> Along this line, many self-launchers have small in-line
> skate wheels on the wingtips so they can start with the
> wing already touching the runway. Perhaps a simple retrofit
> could save your gel-coat (or your life).

Without a steerable tail-wheel and enough tail weight to make
it actually steer, tip wheels merely avoid scraping the wingtip
finish as you ground-loop.

As some who have observed interesting Whale take-offs can attest ;-)

OTH, as it has a proper steerable tail-wheel, I normally
take off without a wing-tip runner in Antares...

Wingtip wheels would help airtow wing drops -- and encourage a lot more toughing it out and waiting for the wing to come up. Especially with water, and double especially with half water, they're not ideal. I'm not a winch expert, but I assume wingtip wheels would be of little help in those accidents..


John Cochrane

Oh dear....

I do not wish to be associated with this post.

My post to Bill was rather direct, for which I will not apologize, however
the post below is unnecessary.

Bill, you have not identified yourself as Bill Daniels? You have not
addressed if your are in fact and authority on the subject or why you are
dismissive of the professionals opinion?

The leaflet that has been produced by the BGA and posted in this thread was
(in part) drafted by Peter Claiden who has been a glider pilot for as long
as I have been alive, but has also just received an OBE from HRH The Queen
on his retirement from the AAIB.

I think I am inclined to value his judgment.

JC


At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
>Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.
>
>On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
>> Hi Justin,
>>
>> I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
>> gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps
be
>an
>> expert.
>>
>> I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
>> certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
>> somewhat ironic.
>>
>> Terry Walsh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record,
what
>>> authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
>are
>>> so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals
who
>>> have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.
>>>
>>> If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
>> opinions
>>> to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the
subject,
>I
>>> will bow to your superior judgement.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Justin
>>>
>>>
>>> At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type
of
>>>>>
>>>>> accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
>> up
>>>>>
>>>>> with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a
symptom
>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> requires that the glider is released very early which is why the
hand
>>>>>
>>>>> should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
>>> month
>>>>>
>>>>> back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
>>> glider
>>>>>
>>>>> was written off.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
>>> earth
>>>>>
>>>>> is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
>has.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Well said Justin & likewise I wish no association to arrogant behaviour and

rude postings about a persons origin, place of residence or physical
defining
features.

I value people's opinions even when I believe they are incorrect or
significantly misaligned with factual evidence, it's what allows me to take
a
balanced view on a subject.

I get particularly hacked off when people of 'authority' belittle genuine
effort
that is conducted by a few for the benefit of many others, especially when

those few give so much of their time in trying to address significant
safety
issues which affect us all.

If the evidence really does show that BGA winch launching incidents are now

reduced from double to a single magnitude worse than our German
counterparts then well done guys - let's keep on going with reducing it
further!

Bill - please take this in the spirit that it is intended, as I have never
met you
and only know of you what you post here. But your attitude does remind me
of the "shouty" instructor syndrome that we have tried very hard to
eradicate
in the country that I fly in - an unhelpful and dangerous position of
authority
that needs to be banished to history.

Proactive positive teaching is required here, not reactive dismissive
comment.
I truly believe the BGA initiatives are pushing hard with the former and
long
may this continue.

Must go as I need a cup of tea and they are about to play God save the
Queen at closedown on the Beeb.

Imperial, my arse (ass).

GG



At 19:35 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
>Oh dear....
>
>I do not wish to be associated with this post.
>
>My post to Bill was rather direct, for which I will not apologize, howeve
>the post below is unnecessary.
>
>Bill, you have not identified yourself as Bill Daniels? You have no
>addressed if your are in fact and authority on the subject or why you ar
>dismissive of the professionals opinion?
>
>The leaflet that has been produced by the BGA and posted in this thread
wa
>(in part) drafted by Peter Claiden who has been a glider pilot for as lon
>as I have been alive, but has also just received an OBE from HRH The Quee
>on his retirement from the AAIB.
>
>I think I am inclined to value his judgment.
>
>JC
>
>
>At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
>>Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.
>>
>>On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
>>> Hi Justin,
>>>
>>> I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
>>> gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhap
>be
>>an
>>> expert.
>>>
>>> I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
>>> certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
>>> somewhat ironic.
>>>
>>> Terry Walsh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
>>>> Bill,
>>>>
>>>> I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record
>what
>>>> authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
>>are
>>>> so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professional
>who
>>>> have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.
>>>>
>>>> If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
>>> opinions
>>>> to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in th
>subject,
>>I
>>>> will bow to your superior judgement.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Justin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this typ
>of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has
come
>>> up
>>>>>>
>>>>>> with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is
>symptom
>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> requires that the glider is released very early which is why th
>hand
>>>>>>
>>>>>> should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
>>>> month
>>>>>>
>>>>>> back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
>>>> glider
>>>>>>
>>>>>> was written off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
>>>> earth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early
release,
>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
>>has.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

My LAK-17a has wheels like the first picture in this link:
http://www.williamssoaring.com/catalog/sailplane-parts.html

They work great on pavement, but are useless on grass.


"Soartech" > wrote in message
...
> JC wrote:
>> The answer: either retractable or disposable pogo sticks on the wingtips,
>> or mid-wing. Something that keeps the wings level to 25 mph and then
>> either drops off or retracts into the wing.
>
> Along this line, many self-launchers have small in-line skate wheels on
> the wingtips so they can start with the wing already touching the runway.
> Perhaps a simple retrofit could save your gel-coat (or your life).
> As for dropable pogo sticks, hang gliders that aerotow often use a 3
> wheeled launch cart(with a wide stance)to keep the wing level until it
> flies away from the cart. No one wants to lift their sailplane into a cart
> so this won't work for us. :-)

Long grass or other vegetatation, and rough surfaces of any
kind can make ground loop or cartwheel type winching accidents
more likely. Small wingtip wheels are probably more likely to
snag in grass than skids.

BTW, UK winch launches using modern high powered winches
give the much the same acceleration as German or anybody
else's winch launches. 0-50 knots in about 3 seconds to give
almost immediate aileron control. Any faster than this produces
additional problems, particularly tail-banging, dangerous over-
rotation with the risk of a stall/spin, and pilots sliding back in
sailplane types with very reclining seats. N.B. always do your
straps up as tightly as possible for winch launching.

Derek Copeland

At 23:44 09 October 2013, Dan Marotta wrote:
>My LAK-17a has wheels like the first picture in this link:
>http://www.williamssoaring.com/catalog/sailplane-parts.html
>
>They work great on pavement, but are useless on grass.
>
>
>"Soartech" wrote in message
>news:facbc642-bebd-4794-a53b-
...
>> JC wrote:
>>> The answer: either retractable or disposable pogo sticks on
the
>wingtips,
>>> or mid-wing. Something that keeps the wings level to 25
mph and then
>>> either drops off or retracts into the wing.
>>
>> Along this line, many self-launchers have small in-line skate
wheels on
>> the wingtips so they can start with the wing already touching
the runway.
>
>> Perhaps a simple retrofit could save your gel-coat (or your
life).
>> As for dropable pogo sticks, hang gliders that aerotow often
use a 3
>> wheeled launch cart(with a wide stance)to keep the wing
level until it
>> flies away from the cart. No one wants to lift their sailplane
into a
>cart
>> so this won't work for us. :-)
>
>

We have had a couple of minor accidents at our site where a
glider has dropped a wing on aerotow and lost directional
control. One of there involved a competition glider striking some
spectators, causing injuries. The holding the release knob thing
is really for winch launching, where things can go horribly wrong
very quickly, but there is also a case for doing so in the early
stages of an aerotow. If you lose directional control, you can pull
off before you gain too much energy. You should not reset flaps
until good aileron control has been established anyway. Some
people like to keep their airbrakes open for the first few
seconds, as this is supposed to improve aileron control (I'm not
convinced), so you would need a third arm to do this, hold the
stick and hold the release knob. The other good reason is that if
you are already holding the release knob, you are less likely to
pull the wrong knob in an emergency. As an instructor, I have
had students operate the airbrakes, open the canopy or retract
the wheel when trying to release from tow!

Derek Copeland


At 16:36 04 October 2013, wrote:
>I have seen several videos on youtube lately where the glider
pilot holds
>t=
>he tow release handle during all parts tow. I've been told it is
taught
>th=
>is way by some in the UK. Sorry to pick on you folks on the
other side of
>=
>the pond as I love your country and can't wait to come over
and glide with
>=
>you in the next few years. ;) =20
>
>It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is a
recipe for
>disa=
>ster eventually.
>
>We have all hit big bumps and turbulence down low on tow.
Why risk
>accident=
>ally pulling the release at 50ft or 100ft in the air? If you are
saying
>it=
> is so that you can immediately pull the handle if something
goes bad on
>to=
>w, it might not be a good enough reason due to the risks of a
accidental
>re=
>lease. Keep your hand on your knee or the flaps handle right
next to the
>r=
>elease and I bet you can pull it just as quickly and you don't
have to
>worr=
>y about messing up a perfectly good tow down low. Am I
missing something
>he=
>re?
>
>Your thoughts? This just seems like a big safety mistake and I
would hate
>f=
>or people who see these videos and then think it is the right
and correct
>t=
>hing to do.
>
>Have fun and fly safe,
>Bruno - B4
>www.youtube.com/bviv
>

Fred,

I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally
arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply commenting
that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an
expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any other
opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant. Since he had
mentioned imperial arrogance I found this ironic.

I do agree with his statement that accidental death is ugly whether caused
by incompetence or any other reason.

Terry Walsh


At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
>Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.
>
>On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
>> Hi Justin,
>>
>> I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
>> gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps
be
>an
>> expert.
>>
>> I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
>> certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
>> somewhat ironic.
>>
>> Terry Walsh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record,
what
>>> authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
>are
>>> so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals
who
>>> have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.
>>>
>>> If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
>> opinions
>>> to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the
subject,
>I
>>> will bow to your superior judgement.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Justin
>>>
>>>
>>> At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type
of
>>>>>
>>>>> accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
>> up
>>>>>
>>>>> with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a
symptom
>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> requires that the glider is released very early which is why the
hand
>>>>>
>>>>> should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
>>> month
>>>>>
>>>>> back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
>>> glider
>>>>>
>>>>> was written off.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
>>> earth
>>>>>
>>>>> is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
>has.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

On Friday, October 4, 2013 12:36:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is
> a recipe for disaster eventually.

Perhaps you will find this thread helpful:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.aviation.soaring/FQrj_lGe-wE/iVlQ0f2L3BMJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.aviation.soaring/FQrj_lGe-wE/2GGBShuhs2oJ

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 7:20:37 AM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Friday, October 4, 2013 12:36:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> > It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is
>
> > a recipe for disaster eventually.
>
>
>
> Perhaps you will find this thread helpful:
>
>
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.aviation.soaring/FQrj_lGe-wE/iVlQ0f2L3BMJ
>
>
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.aviation.soaring/FQrj_lGe-wE/2GGBShuhs2oJ

You're both right.

T8

Wow! I'm gob-smacked at your arrogance Bill!

I give a link to useful information that might help others decide
how they want to handle a winch launch and all you can do is
rant without any helpful advice or information whatsoever.

Why not try being helpful instead.


At 17:37 09 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>On Monday, October 7, 2013 5:33:57 AM UTC-6, Andrew
Henderson wrote:
>> Re winch launching. You guy's might like to check out the
very
>>
>> useful Safe winching leaflet and associated information put
out by
>>
>> the BGA after much thought and refinement of the process's.
This
>>
>> has resulted in a significant reduction in the number of
>>
>> accidents/injury's in the UK from winch launching.
>>
>>
>>
>>
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Andy
>
>Yes, a reduction in accidents to the point where you're now
only one order
>of magnitude worse than the Germans instead of two.
>
>

So, given that it is alleged that the Germans have a far better record on
winch accidents than the UK, is there someone on here with a good knowledge
of UK and German practices to indicate where or indeed if there are
differences that might account for this.

I can think of various areas where differences might occur:
Glider pilot training on the winch:- amount of launch failure training etc
Winch types and driver training including professional or club member
operation of the winch.
Launch point control systems and personnel operating them - training etc
Airfield layout and operations inc quality of strip/grass cutting etc.

My main experience is of UK glider clubs so short of people available that
at times the wing runner is also communicating upslack/allout over his hand
held radio to the winch driver and generally controlling the launch so has
both hands occupied. He is in no position while running to be able to stop
running, find the transmit button and send a stop command in the event of a
problem.

At 18:05 10 October 2013, John Howell wrote:
>

>My main experience is of UK glider clubs so short of people
available that
>at times the wing runner is also communicating upslack/allout
over his hand
>held radio to the winch driver and generally controlling the
launch so has
>both hands occupied. He is in no position while running to be
able to stop
>running, find the transmit button and send a stop command in
the event of a
>problem.
>
>
For the record, that scenario emphatically does not apply at the
Scottish Gliding Centre.

John Galloway

One of the reasons the UK historically had a poor winch
launching safety record was that we copied German methods. In
particular, when we first had powerful German Tost winches we
were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the speed.
This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents, so we
realised that this was not a good idea, as have the Germans. We
now start with the stick forward of centre and control the
rotation rate, and haven't had a flick spin accident for several
years.

Bill Daniels is the self styled US expert on winch launching, a
country where very little winch launching is done. He is busy
trying to re-invent the wheel and seems unwilling to learn from
European experience (not invented here syndrome).

Derek Copeland

At 13:55 10 October 2013, Andrew Henderson wrote:
>Wow! I'm gob-smacked at your arrogance Bill!
>
>I give a link to useful information that might help others decide
>how they want to handle a winch launch and all you can do is
>rant without any helpful advice or information whatsoever.
>
> Why not try being helpful instead.
>
>
>At 17:37 09 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>>On Monday, October 7, 2013 5:33:57 AM UTC-6, Andrew
>Henderson wrote:
>>> Re winch launching. You guy's might like to check out the
>very
>>>
>>> useful Safe winching leaflet and associated information put
>out by
>>>
>>> the BGA after much thought and refinement of the
process's.
>This
>>>
>>> has resulted in a significant reduction in the number of
>>>
>>> accidents/injury's in the UK from winch launching.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.ht
m
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy
>>
>>Yes, a reduction in accidents to the point where you're now
>only one order
>>of magnitude worse than the Germans instead of two.
>>
>>
>
>

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 7:05:51 PM UTC+1, John Howell wrote:
> So, given that it is alleged that the Germans have a far better record on
> winch accidents than the UK, is there someone on here with a good knowledge
> of UK and German practices to indicate where or indeed if there are
> differences that might account for this.
>
>
We had this debate with Mr Daniels back in July where he was claiming that the UK winch accident record was an order of magnitude or more worse in the UK than Germany. He challenged people to look at the data, which I did (I think it was raining). My conclusion, reproduced below, was that the accident rates (based on fatalities and serious) were not currently significantly different. Having said that, I have no problem learning from what other people do - it's one way to get better. I'm a little disappointed, but perhaps not surprised, that Mr Daniels continues to broadcast the >10:1 difference.

Paul

Hi Bill

None of what follows is to gloss over the need to improve safety, or to say that we can’t learn from others. But, for those of us who have responsibilities in this area, it’s important to distinguish fact from opinion. You seem to be someone who thinks about these things, so here’s a real attempt to engage.

So far as I can tell, your premise is that the UK winch accident rate is very poor – an order of magnitude worse than the Germans, and that the cause of that is insufficient acceleration on launch. I think the facts show that you’re wrong.

Let’s unpack that.

GERMAN VS UK SAFETY
You said “The numbers I used are available for anybody to read and analyze. The differences are so huge, there's no way to come up with a different result. If you disagree, go read them and do your own analysis”. So I did and I have. My conclusion is that safety of winch launches in Germany is similar to that in the UK. I base this on the fact that a German pilot’s chance of being seriously injured or killed on a winch launch is similar to that of a UK pilot. I think the differences you are seeing are reporting and analysis differences.

In the last seven years, there have been 17 accidents with 20 fatalities and serious injuries closely related to winch launching in Germany. I’ve listed them below.

In the same period, there have been five fatal and serious injury accidents relating to winch launching in the UK. (see 2009-2012 accident reports by the BGA) so about a 3.4:1-4:1 ratio depending on whether you count accidents or fatalities. I’ve also listed those.

Given your earlier numbers of 180K launches in the UK, and 900K in Germany (a 5:1 ratio), the chance of someone being injured or killed on a winch launch in Germany looks pretty similar to that in the UK – certainly within statistical significance. I conclude that the safety of the two countries is probably similar (whilst still being very interested in anything we can learn from the way that the Germans go about things). We know we can improve in the UK – but it’s not helpful to suggest that there’s worse than an order of magnitude difference – it leads to looking in the wrong place.

Don Johnstone’s account of the way that the UK Air Cadets go about things Is much more compelling from an evidential point of view (no fatalities, similar numbers of launches to rest of UK, we’re told)

Why are your numbers so different? You seem to be taking the BGA numbers which are all accidents and incidents and comparing them with some fairly filtered results from Germany. The data you previously quoted from 2011, for example, and which you said were not filtered for serious and fatal are all on a table labelled “Reports on completed investigations of accidents and serious incident” from the BFU (http://tinyurl.com/occjw49). I don’t think they get to that list unless they’ve merited an investigation, and it’s notable that in earlier years (up to 2008) there were annual reports published with a lot of incidents that didn’t make it to the main list (see http://tinyurl.com/pxhm4ln).


CAUSE OF ACCIDENTS
If you’re talking about all the accidents and incidents that the BGA records (which is what you generally seem to be looking at), there’s little to support your contention that the speed of acceleration on the winch launch is the prime cause. By far the majority of incidents and accidents can in no way be related to launch acceleration – for example landing accidents following a real or practice cable break.

Even looking at the fatal and serious UK accidents, they appear mostly to be related to other causes.

I don’t think anyone is against the idea that an excessively long ground runs are bad – but it’s not clear that being told that the BGA advises a three second acceleration merits “You and the BGA are tragically wrong. You need to take another long look at that analysis. Slow acceleration is the most significant cause of the poor UK accident record. “ Even Andreas is saying that they use 3s accelerations at his club.

It’s also not persuasive to dismiss first-hand accounts as old wives’ tales. Think of the definition of the latter. At least one of the German accidents I looked at above seems to have been caused by a high acceleration pitch up (09-3X118) (subject to Google translate’s accuracy!). Even if you’re right about that, your correct observation that high accelerations can cause incorrect pitch sensations would seem to me to be quite a good reason to back off the acceleration. I don’t have a strong view or expertise on this, but I note there seems to be a degree of consensus around a 3 second acceleration (and when I looked at youtube videos, as you suggested, there was not a significant difference between UK and German practice – and I know how to time things, thanks).



Bottom line – there’s a useful discussion here, comparing practices in different countries. But it’s not helped by misunderstanding different data sets.

Paul

Here’s the data.

German winch accidents 2006-2012 (serious injury and fatal)

06-3X080: New solo student, cable break at 80m, turned, glider destroyed, serious injury
07-3X127: Steep climb, stall and flick at 40m, glider destroyed, fatal
08-3X041: ASH 26 E, stall and flick at 20-30m, aircraft destroyed, serious injury
08-3X063: Discus 2, water, launch from wing stand, wing drop or low altitude stall, aircraft destroyed, serious injury
08-3X113 : Hornet, roll at about 30m, stall? Aircraft destroyed, fatal
09-3X047: DG300, Low cable break, turned, spun in, glider destroyed, fatal
09-3X118: Cirrus. High acceleration, high angle, flick, aircraft destroyed, fatal
09-3X123: Climb to 10-20m, dropped a wing, crash, injury
09-3X144 : Janus, cable break, heavy landing, one serious injury
10-3X058: SF34, Low cable break, turned, spun in. Aircraft destroyed, two fatalities
10-3X059: ASW19, hit ground from 10-20m. Aircraft destroyed, serious injury
11-3X060. : A Jeans-Astir got launched into a Remos ultralight which crossed the pass of the glider from right to left. The two a/c's collided in about 1,200ft and both lost their wings resulting in three fatalities.
11-3X065: The glider was launched on the winch but did not gain sufficient altitude and released in about 40m. Instead of landing straight ahead, the pilot tried to reach a field to the left and then forced the glider into a ground-loop. Pilot suffered broken vertebrae; the passenger only minor injuries.
11-3X080: A LS4 was being launched and after 40-50m of ground roll (!!) the gear collapsed. The glider was dragged for another 23m on the belly and finally lifted off. The launch-boss had given the 'All-stop' command which was followed by the operator. The glider did not have enough speed or altitude to recover and landed very hard. Minor injuries
11-3X093: Spin-in after normal launch - aircaft destroyed, fatal
11-3X095: A Ka-8 was launched on the winch and when the glider's right wing touched the ground and veered off to the right, the launch-boss gave the command 'All stop', which was followed by the operator. The the command to continue the launch was given but the line detached from the glider which then stalled over the right wing and impacted the ground out of about 10m. The pilot was 65 years old. Serious damage and injury
12-3X034: Wing drop, serious injury, aircraft destroyed

I missed out a couple that were on a winch but were, for example, controls not connected.

UK winch accidents 2006-2012 (serious injury and fatal)

2006-2008: 2 fatal or serious injury accidents connected with winch launching (BGA Glider Accidents in 2008)
2009: Cable break at 300 ft, instructor lowered nose, turned, stalled. Serious injury
2009: Stall and flick during rotation. Fatal
2012: Cartwheel after wing drop. Fatal

At 18:47 10 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
>At 18:05 10 October 2013, John Howell wrote:
>>
>
>>My main experience is of UK glider clubs so short of people
>available that
>>at times the wing runner is also communicating upslack/allout
>over his hand
>>held radio to the winch driver and generally controlling the
>launch so has
>>both hands occupied. He is in no position while running to be
>able to stop
>>running, find the transmit button and send a stop command in
>the event of a
>>problem.
>>
>>
>For the record, that scenario emphatically does not apply at the
>Scottish Gliding Centre.
>
>John Galloway
>
>
nor at three clubs in eastern england that I regularly visit

At 06:31 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
>One of the reasons the UK historically had a poor winch
>launching safety record was that we copied German methods. In
>particular, when we first had powerful German Tost winches we
>were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the speed.
>This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents, so we
>realised that this was not a good idea, as have the Germans.
We
>now start with the stick forward of centre and control the
>rotation rate, and haven't had a flick spin accident for several
>years.
>

Del, when you say "we copied the German methods etc" - who is
the "we"? It was 1969 that I first trained and soloed on the winch
in the UK and I have never personally encountered instruction to
start a winch launch with the stick hard back to contain the speed.

John Galloway

That's what we told to do when we first acquired our Tost
winches at Lasham, in order to contain the speed and get the
highest possible launches. Prior to that we autotowed, where you
had to initially climb quite gently as the acceleration was slow
and it took time to build up a safe speed. After a few cases when
K8's and similar lightweight gliders went into near vertical climbs
before breaking the weak link, we backed off the instruction.
Fortunately we didn't kill any of the pilots. Dunstable went on
launching quite steeply for some years until they had a fatality
caused by a flick spin. Certainly when we visited that club we
always used to hold our breath as we watched them winch
launching gliders. Some German pilots seem to pull up more
steeply than we now do, and I note from the accident statistics
published earlier in this thread that they have had a couple of
flick spin fatalities in recent times.

Derek Copeland

At 09:29 11 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
>At 06:31 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
>>One of the reasons the UK historically had a poor winch
>>launching safety record was that we copied German methods.
In
>>particular, when we first had powerful German Tost winches
we
>>were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the
speed.
>>This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents, so
we
>>realised that this was not a good idea, as have the Germans.
>We
>>now start with the stick forward of centre and control the
>>rotation rate, and haven't had a flick spin accident for several
>>years.
>>
>
>Del, when you say "we copied the German methods etc" - who
is
>the "we"? It was 1969 that I first trained and soloed on the
winch
>in the UK and I have never personally encountered instruction
to
>start a winch launch with the stick hard back to contain the
speed.
>
>John Galloway
>
>

At Dunstable we operate a 6 drum Van Gelda winch and have done so for some
25+ years. It has NEVER been taught to start the launch with the stick on
the back stop, in fact quite the reverse then followed by gentle rotation
into a steeper climb. Given the operational restrictions of the site, we do
climb "steeper" than at other sites, however certainly NOT before we have a
safe height and safe airspeed to do so.


At 10:20 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
>That's what we told to do when we first acquired our Tost
>winches at Lasham, in order to contain the speed and get the
>highest possible launches. Prior to that we autotowed, where you
>had to initially climb quite gently as the acceleration was slow
>and it took time to build up a safe speed. After a few cases when
>K8's and similar lightweight gliders went into near vertical climbs
>before breaking the weak link, we backed off the instruction.
>Fortunately we didn't kill any of the pilots. Dunstable went on
>launching quite steeply for some years until they had a fatality
>caused by a flick spin. Certainly when we visited that club we
>always used to hold our breath as we watched them winch
>launching gliders. Some German pilots seem to pull up more
>steeply than we now do, and I note from the accident statistics
>published earlier in this thread that they have had a couple of
>flick spin fatalities in recent times.
>
>Derek Copeland
>
>At 09:29 11 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
>>At 06:31 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
>>>One of the reasons the UK historically had a poor winch
>>>launching safety record was that we copied German methods.
>In
>>>particular, when we first had powerful German Tost winches
>we
>>>were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the
>speed.
>>>This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents, so
>we
>>>realised that this was not a good idea, as have the Germans.
>>We
>>>now start with the stick forward of centre and control the
>>>rotation rate, and haven't had a flick spin accident for several
>>>years.
>>>
>>
>>Del, when you say "we copied the German methods etc" - who
>is
>>the "we"? It was 1969 that I first trained and soloed on the
>winch
>>in the UK and I have never personally encountered instruction
>to
>>start a winch launch with the stick hard back to contain the
>speed.
>>
>>John Galloway
>>
>>
>
>

I have visited your site (Dunstable) quite recently and your
winch launches look pretty much the same as what we do at
Lasham these days, presumably because you have taken on
board the recommendations of the BGA Safe Winch Launching
Initiative. This hasn't always been the case, as your launches
used to make us gasp when we visited. The explanation given
was that you have a small site and had to get to get the most
height out of your launches. BTW I don't believe a reasonably
gentle and controlled rotation costs any launch height. You might
get a momentary overspeed, which is not critical low down, but
this then gets converted back into height as you pull back to
control the speed once established in the full climb.

Derek Copeland

At 11:20 11 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
>At Dunstable we operate a 6 drum Van Gelda winch and have
done so for some
>25+ years. It has NEVER been taught to start the launch with
the stick on
>the back stop, in fact quite the reverse then followed by gentle
rotation
>into a steeper climb. Given the operational restrictions of the
site, we do
>climb "steeper" than at other sites, however certainly NOT
before we have a
>safe height and safe airspeed to do so.
>
>
>At 10:20 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
>>That's what we told to do when we first acquired our Tost
>>winches at Lasham, in order to contain the speed and get the
>>highest possible launches. Prior to that we autotowed, where
you
>>had to initially climb quite gently as the acceleration was slow
>>and it took time to build up a safe speed. After a few cases
when
>>K8's and similar lightweight gliders went into near vertical
climbs
>>before breaking the weak link, we backed off the instruction.
>>Fortunately we didn't kill any of the pilots. Dunstable went on
>>launching quite steeply for some years until they had a
fatality
>>caused by a flick spin. Certainly when we visited that club we
>>always used to hold our breath as we watched them winch
>>launching gliders. Some German pilots seem to pull up more
>>steeply than we now do, and I note from the accident
statistics
>>published earlier in this thread that they have had a couple of
>>flick spin fatalities in recent times.
>>
>>Derek Copeland
>>
>>At 09:29 11 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
>>>At 06:31 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
>>>>One of the reasons the UK historically had a poor winch
>>>>launching safety record was that we copied German
methods.
>>In
>>>>particular, when we first had powerful German Tost
winches
>>we
>>>>were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the
>>speed.
>>>>This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents,
so
>>we
>>>>realised that this was not a good idea, as have the
Germans.
>>>We
>>>>now start with the stick forward of centre and control the
>>>>rotation rate, and haven't had a flick spin accident for
several
>>>>years.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Del, when you say "we copied the German methods etc" -
who
>>is
>>>the "we"? It was 1969 that I first trained and soloed on the
>>winch
>>>in the UK and I have never personally encountered
instruction
>>to
>>>start a winch launch with the stick hard back to contain the
>>speed.
>>>
>>>John Galloway
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the release
during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the glider pilot if a
wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to become a debate
about winch launch techniques.

The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug pilot! Over
the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have been killed by
glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too quickly. This
results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall, and
since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider raises the
tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug upset is
probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience to the
glider pilot.

Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time period -
probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider pilot time to
search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug pilot's
life.

On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the release, or
holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement would
otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are doing you a
service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the tow goes
wrong.

One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough and that the
release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill a tug
pilot.

Totally agree George. However the tug pilot should have a
release at his end which he is perfectly entitled to pull if things
are getting out of hand.

Derek Copeland

At 13:17 11 October 2013, George Knight wrote:
>This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the
release
>during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the
glider pilot if a
>wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to
become a debate
>about winch launch techniques.
>
>The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug
pilot! Over
>the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have
been killed by
>glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too
quickly. This
>results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall,
and
>since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider
raises the
>tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug
upset is
>probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience
to the
>glider pilot.
>
>Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time
period -
>probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider
pilot time to
>search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug
pilot's
>life.
>
>On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the
release, or
>holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement
would
>otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are
doing you a
>service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the
tow goes
>wrong.
>
>One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough
and that the
>release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill
a tug
>pilot.
>
>
>

Agreed, but depending on the tug being flown this may be more difficult
than for the glider pilot. The tug pilot will normally have one hand on
the stick and the other on the throttle/gas so at a moment when he is
probably being subjected to a violent downward 'bunt' he needs to let go of
something (the throttle), look for the release, grab it and operate it. On
some tugs the release is near the throttle, on others it is in the roof, it
may be on his left when he has his right hand on the throttle. Evidence
suggests that tug pilots are not able to react fast enough.

The onus must be on the glider pilot not to put the tug and its pilot at
risk. If the glider pilot has his hand touching the release:
1. He/she can pull it faster than the tug.
2. The glider pilot is in a better position to see/realise that the tow is
going wrong. Unless the tug pilot is looking in the mirror at the right
moment, by the time he feels the speed going and the nose dropping it is
probably too late if he is much below 1,000'.

At 14:11 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
>Totally agree George. However the tug pilot should have a
>release at his end which he is perfectly entitled to pull if things
>are getting out of hand.
>
>Derek Copeland
>
>At 13:17 11 October 2013, George Knight wrote:
>>This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the
>release
>>during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the
>glider pilot if a
>>wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to
>become a debate
>>about winch launch techniques.
>>
>>The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug
>pilot! Over
>>the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have
>been killed by
>>glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too
>quickly. This
>>results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall,
>and
>>since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider
>raises the
>>tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug
>upset is
>>probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience
>to the
>>glider pilot.
>>
>>Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time
>period -
>>probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider
>pilot time to
>>search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug
>pilot's
>>life.
>>
>>On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the
>release, or
>>holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement
>would
>>otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are
>doing you a
>>service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the
>tow goes
>>wrong.
>>
>>One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough
>and that the
>>release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill
>a tug
>>pilot.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

I don't have a 3rd hand to hold the tow release. Practice tells me when I have aileron control. Flying my '20, my left hand is just as busy as the right. I agree with B4's description. I don't look to see what the ASI is saying. Sliding from flap 2 to flap 4 and the plane lifts off by itself.

On Friday, October 4, 2013 1:37:45 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
> >
>
> > In an ASW19, 20 or 27 it is common practice (even mentioned in the POH) to start an aero tow with partially deployed spoilers to help keep ailerons effective at low speeds. At around 30 knots put in spoilers and move flaps from 2 to 4. Works great. :)
>
>
>
> Sounds OK in theory. An engineer probably came up with the POH entry, but....
>
> Who has time to look at the airspeed, look at the runway, tow plane and keep it all straight plus close spoilers and change flaps at a certain speed? With our clubs 260 HP towplane it all happens fast! Ailerons seem to work fine in about 3 seconds.

On Friday, October 11, 2013 7:17:42 AM UTC-6, George Knight wrote:
> This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the release
>
> during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the glider pilot if a
>
> wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to become a debate
>
> about winch launch techniques.
>
>
>
> The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug pilot! Over
>
> the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have been killed by
>
> glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too quickly. This
>
> results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall, and
>
> since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider raises the
>
> tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug upset is
>
> probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience to the
>
> glider pilot.
>
>
>
> Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time period -
>
> probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider pilot time to
>
> search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug pilot's
>
> life.
>
>
>
> On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the release, or
>
> holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement would
>
> otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are doing you a
>
> service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the tow goes
>
> wrong.
>
>
>
> One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough and that the
>
> release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill a tug
>
> pilot.

Hi George,
Thanks for your comments. You are correct that we do need to remember the amazing guys and gals up in the tow planes and remember the risks they take to tow us up for our own fun. That said, I would like to assert that there have been many more accidents and bent ships from gliders accidentally releasing at low altitudes because their hand was on the release than tow planes being pulled into the ground because a hand was NOT on the release.

Bruno - B4

At 16:54 11 October 2013, wrote:
>Hi George,
>Thanks for your comments. You are correct that we do need to
remember the
>a=
>mazing guys and gals up in the tow planes and remember the
risks they take
>=
>to tow us up for our own fun. That said, I would like to assert
that there
>=
>have been many more accidents and bent ships from gliders
accidentally
>rele=
>asing at low altitudes because their hand was on the release
than tow
>plane=
>s being pulled into the ground because a hand was NOT on the
release.=20
>
>Bruno - B4
>

However.... it's not the number of accidents that really count, it's
both the number of occurrences and the severity of the outcome
you need to consider. The pilot of a "bent ship" released
accidentally at low altitude will probably walk away with only his
pride and wallet dented. The tug pilot in an upset incident will
almost certainly not walk away. So you can't simply choose
between the two assuming they are equally serious. To stop the
serious/fatal accident you may have to put up with a slight
increase in non-serious accidents. So if someone does
accidentally release because they hit turbulence, scrapes a
glider in the field they rapidly choose the lesson learned is not
"should have had my hand away from the release" it is "...these
things happen, at least you didn't kill the tug pilot too"

In my own experience the time between the last "if the rope
breaks now I will land ahead" and the first ""if the rope breaks
now I will return to the airfield" is actually quit small, even in the
most hostile terrain, and doing this in your head every launch
certainly focus the mind to not accidentally release where it
really matters

The main thing is to ensure that the glider pilot's arm is not at full
stretch when holding the release knob, so there is a bit of slack in
the system and he is not likely to pull it accidentally due to
turbulence etc. Perhaps an extension cord should be attached if
the release knob is difficult to get at or too far away.
Derek Copeland

>
>Hi George,
>Thanks for your comments. You are correct that we do need to
remember the
>a=
>mazing guys and gals up in the tow planes and remember the
risks they take
>=
>to tow us up for our own fun. That said, I would like to assert that
there
>=
>have been many more accidents and bent ships from gliders
accidentally
>rele=
>asing at low altitudes because their hand was on the release than
tow
>plane=
>s being pulled into the ground because a hand was NOT on the
release.=20
>
>Bruno - B4
>

I went solo in a glider in 1962 and for about 5 years after that my main
duties were that of winch driver undertaking about 50 launches per
weekend.In 50 years of gliding I have held or hold a CFS credited A2 Star
instructor category, a BGA Full Cat and Assistant Cat.I have been appointed
as the OC of awinch launched Air Cadet Gliding School, and CFI. I am
Currently DCFI at my club. I have over 10,000 launches the majority of
which are by winch. I have had no accident. I have released a glider at the
start of a winch launch on about 5 occasions after we started to move and
before we were airborne. I all cases my hand was on the release and was
because a wing was dropping. I all cases I was the instructor in the back
seat and I have no idea whether or not the wing drop would have been
recovered, I did not think it was prudent to wait to find out. I only
mention all this so that no one will be in any doubt that my next statement
is made with some knowledge gained by experience.

I have flown at many clubs and AC Gliding Schools and have observed
operations at many more. I can say that the winch operation at Portmoak,
The Scottish Gliding Centre is as efficient and safe as any I have seen,
and has always been so since I started visiting many years ago. Even the
launch round the pole was done in such a way as to be completely safe.

If anyone should know the primary cause of the cartwheel accidents I, and
many others would be glad to hear it. The wing drop is a symptom and the
actions of the wing runner do not appear to have any contribution to the
cause. In my opinion the most likely factors are aft fitted CoG hooks,
rapid acceleration, crosswind, too strong weak links, cable misalignment
and the pilot holding the aileron/rudder controls in any position other
than neutral or mishandling. I suspect that if only one factor is present
the result is not too serious but the presence of 2 or more factors is
likely to result in disaster but it does appear that no one really knows.
In those circumstances a very early release is the only action that will
mitigate the result and it is therefore sensible to be in a position to
release as quickly as possible. The events happen very quickly and even the
milliseconds or longer taken searching for the release can be too long. The
time saved by having your hand on the release can literally mean the
difference between life or death. As an aside on of the reasons for
removing the safe blind handle from ejector seats was to do away with the
time it took for a pilot to decide which handle to use. There is a time
penalty in deciding all actions, if you are holding the release at least
one decision/action is removed from the chain.

What concerns me is that some uninformed people have failed to grasp the
importance of holding the release (pun intended) and even worse have argued
against it. The danger is that people with less experience may not adopt
the procedure because of these irresponsible arguments and statements.

I flew an ASW 17 for several years and I did hold the flap lever on
aerotowing but I always had a paracord loop around my wrist and the release
knob. The use of air-brake to increase aileron effectiveness is unnecessary
on a flapped sailplane where negative flap, which has the same effect, is
available so the paracord loop would work for airbrakes as well.

Bottom line, holding the release from the moment the cable is attached,
whatever your method of tow is a sensible and safe practice. An inadvertent
release on the ground run is only likely to cause embarrassment and some
pushing and shoving, but at least you will be alive to do it.

On Friday, October 11, 2013 4:03:27 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:

> If anyone should know the primary cause of the cartwheel accidents I, and
>
> many others would be glad to hear it. The wing drop is a symptom and the
>
> actions of the wing runner do not appear to have any contribution to the
>
> cause.

It looks like aileron stall to me. I cannot have been the first to form this opinion, so I'm certain I'll now be told this cannot be the case for some very good reason.

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 10:20:54 +0000, Del Copeland wrote:

> That's what we told to do when we first acquired our Tost winches at
> Lasham, in order to contain the speed and get the highest possible
> launches. Prior to that we autotowed, where you had to initially climb
> quite gently as the acceleration was slow and it took time to build up a
> safe speed. After a few cases when K8's and similar lightweight gliders
> went into near vertical climbs before breaking the weak link, we backed
> off the instruction. Fortunately we didn't kill any of the pilots.
> Dunstable went on launching quite steeply for some years until they had
> a fatality caused by a flick spin. Certainly when we visited that club
> we always used to hold our breath as we watched them winch launching
> gliders. Some German pilots seem to pull up more steeply than we now do,
> and I note from the accident statistics published earlier in this thread
> that they have had a couple of flick spin fatalities in recent times.
>
Very interesting, and it may well explain a German photo I found showing
a Libelle around a meter off the ground, cable attached, but pitched up
steeply enough to make me, as a fellow Libelle driver who usually
winches, wonder just what happened during the next 2 or three seconds.

Unfortunately the photo only showed the front half of the glider so I
couldn't see what angle the elevator was at.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

At 15:09 11 October 2013, George Knight wrote:
>Agreed, but depending on the tug being flown this may be more difficult
>than for the glider pilot. The tug pilot will normally have one hand on
>the stick and the other on the throttle/gas so at a moment when he is
>probably being subjected to a violent downward 'bunt' he needs to let go
of
>something (the throttle), look for the release, grab it and operate it.
On
>some tugs the release is near the throttle, on others it is in the roof,
it
>may be on his left when he has his right hand on the throttle. Evidence
>suggests that tug pilots are not able to react fast enough.
>
>The onus must be on the glider pilot not to put the tug and its pilot at
>risk. If the glider pilot has his hand touching the release:
>1. He/she can pull it faster than the tug.
>2. The glider pilot is in a better position to see/realise that the tow
is
>going wrong. Unless the tug pilot is looking in the mirror at the right
>moment, by the time he feels the speed going and the nose dropping it is
>probably too late if he is much below 1,000'.
>
Following the accident at Aboyne in which Stan Easton lost his life one of
the requirements for UK tugs is that the release must always be adjacent to
the throttle. I have seen banner towing tugs where it is not but for glider
towing I understood that it was a requirement.

If the pilot is going to hold the release knob, which I would
assert is a good idea, his arm should not be at full stretch when
their is a chance of accidentally pulling it if turbulence is
encountered. There should be some slack in the system. If the
release knob is hard to get at, or a bit too far away, then an
extension cord should be added.

Derek Copeland

At 16:54 11 October 2013, wrote:
>Hi George,
>Thanks for your comments. You are correct that we do need to
remember the
>a=
>mazing guys and gals up in the tow planes and remember the
risks they take
>=
>to tow us up for our own fun. That said, I would like to assert
that there
>=
>have been many more accidents and bent ships from gliders
accidentally
>rele=
>asing at low altitudes because their hand was on the release
than tow
>plane=
>s being pulled into the ground because a hand was NOT on the
release.=20
>
>Bruno - B4
>

For a comprehensive discussion of this topic, search RAS for Fatality at PGC. Read the post by Bill.

At 15:58 12 October 2013, wrote:
>For a comprehensive discussion of this topic, search RAS for Fatality at
>PGC. Read the post by Bill.

By all means read both references but I implore you to ignore the advice of
Bill, he is speaking about something he knows very little about.

On Friday, October 11, 2013 2:31:00 AM UTC-4, Derek C wrote:
.... we
>
> were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the speed.
>
> This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents,...

What is a Flick Spin?

The simulation videos here http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm illustrate Flick Roll and Spin, but no Flick Spin.

At 18:43 12 October 2013, son_of_flubber wrote:
>On Friday, October 11, 2013 2:31:00 AM UTC-4, Derek C wrote:
>.... we
>>
>> were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the speed.
>>
>> This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents,...
>
>What is a Flick Spin?
>
>The simulation videos here
>http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm
illustrate Flick
>Roll and Spin, but no Flick Spin.
>

Same thing. Due to rapid pitch up caused by the rotational couple
effect (line of pull below c of g of glider), plus not controlling the
rate of rotation, causing the wings to stall and a flick roll can
follow. Mostly a problem associated with powerful winches and
very rapid acceleration.

Derek Copeland

At 18:43 12 October 2013, son_of_flubber wrote:

>What is a Flick Spin?

A Flick Roll with enough room to segue into a properly developed spin
before you hit the ground?

I believe that's what we Yanks call a snap roll.


"Del Copeland" > wrote in message
...
> At 18:43 12 October 2013, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>On Friday, October 11, 2013 2:31:00 AM UTC-4, Derek C wrote:
>>.... we
>>>
>>> were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the speed.
>>>
>>> This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents,...
>>
>>What is a Flick Spin?
>>
>>The simulation videos here
>>http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm
> illustrate Flick
>>Roll and Spin, but no Flick Spin.
>>
>
> Same thing. Due to rapid pitch up caused by the rotational couple
> effect (line of pull below c of g of glider), plus not controlling the
> rate of rotation, causing the wings to stall and a flick roll can
> follow. Mostly a problem associated with powerful winches and
> very rapid acceleration.
>
> Derek Copeland
>

What ever it is, it will still kill or seriously injure you if do one
close to the ground in a glider. Basically it's a low altitude spin in
with no time or height in which to effect a recovery.

Derek Copeland


At 22:32 12 October 2013, Dan Marotta wrote:
>I believe that's what we Yanks call a snap roll.
>
>
>"Del Copeland" wrote in message
...
>> At 18:43 12 October 2013, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>>On Friday, October 11, 2013 2:31:00 AM UTC-4, Derek C
wrote:
>>>.... we
>>>>
>>>> were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the
speed.
>>>>
>>>> This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin
accidents,...
>>>
>>>What is a Flick Spin?
>>>
>>>The simulation videos here
>>>http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm
>> illustrate Flick
>>>Roll and Spin, but no Flick Spin.
>>>
>>
>> Same thing. Due to rapid pitch up caused by the rotational
couple
>> effect (line of pull below c of g of glider), plus not controlling
the
>> rate of rotation, causing the wings to stall and a flick roll can
>> follow. Mostly a problem associated with powerful winches
and
>> very rapid acceleration.
>>
>> Derek Copeland
>>
>
>

You're quite correct about the danger close to the ground, however, they're
quite a lot fun when intentionally executed! I watched my partner (and
friend) spin in from about 200 ft (thankfully, he survived). It was after a
ground launch, but entirely unrelated to the launch.


"Del Copeland" > wrote in message
...
> What ever it is, it will still kill or seriously injure you if do one
> close to the ground in a glider. Basically it's a low altitude spin in
> with no time or height in which to effect a recovery.
>
> Derek Copeland
>
>
> At 22:32 12 October 2013, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>I believe that's what we Yanks call a snap roll.
>>
>>
>>"Del Copeland" wrote in message
...
>>> At 18:43 12 October 2013, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>>>On Friday, October 11, 2013 2:31:00 AM UTC-4, Derek C
> wrote:
>>>>.... we
>>>>>
>>>>> were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the
> speed.
>>>>>
>>>>> This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin
> accidents,...
>>>>
>>>>What is a Flick Spin?
>>>>
>>>>The simulation videos here
>>>>http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm
>>> illustrate Flick
>>>>Roll and Spin, but no Flick Spin.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Same thing. Due to rapid pitch up caused by the rotational
> couple
>>> effect (line of pull below c of g of glider), plus not controlling
> the
>>> rate of rotation, causing the wings to stall and a flick roll can
>>> follow. Mostly a problem associated with powerful winches
> and
>>> very rapid acceleration.
>>>
>>> Derek Copeland
>>>
>>
>>
>

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote:
> Fred,
>
>
>
> I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally
>
> arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply commenting
>
> that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an
>
> expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any other
>
> opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant.

I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all congratulate each other for fuzzy thinking.

Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every time you screw up, it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those screw-ups are based on institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that nonsense, it makes me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the 2013 Glider Flying Handbook.

The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my own imagination, it's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains about the best information on winch launch safety available.

The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches". That's true. Compared to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany, the UK doesn't do many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes Germany a far better source of safety information.

If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on the acceleration phase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79580374/Acceleration.pdf

OK Bill, here is my problem with your argument that all our problems are
basically due to too slow acceleration.

1. I have not seen or experienced these slow acceleration launches and they
are certainly not the norm at any site at which I have flown recently.

2. I have also auto towed (some years ago) where the acceleration is by
definition slow, I never saw a wing drop come close to an accident.

3. The same applies to aerotows, slow acceleration, here I have seen wing
drops and witnessed people releasing but no cartwheels.

4. The reason these wing drops have been fatal is that they occur just
before the glider ls ready to fly. in my mind this implies that the
acceleration was fast since the glider apparently goes from insufficient
aileron control to flying speed too quickly for the pilot to react. I
think perhaps , as Don said that the problem is actually yaw induced roll.

Based on what you say we in the UK have a much worse safety record than the
Germans, so accepting this I agree that we are apparently not getting
something right. I do not agree with your analysis and you have shown no
readiness to accept that there may be another different problem. This is
what I mean by arrogance. If as you say everybody outside UK agrees with
your argument why have none of them posted here to say so.

I think it is a problem caused by individual pilot errors rather than our
procedures. Why I am not sure although I do have some thoughts regarding
pilot currency.

Terry Walsh


At 17:47 13 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote:
>> Fred,
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally
>>=20
>> arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply
>commenti=
>ng
>>=20
>> that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an
>>=20
>> expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any
other
>>=20
>> opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant.
>
>I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all congratulate
each
>=
>other for fuzzy thinking.
>
>Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every time you screw
>up=
>, it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those screw-ups are based
>on=
> institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that nonsense, it
makes
>=
>me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the 2013 Glider
>Flying=
> Handbook.
>
>The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my own imagination,
>i=
>t's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains about the best
>inf=
>ormation on winch launch safety available.
>
>The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches". That's true.
>Compare=
>d to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany, the UK doesn't
do
>=
>many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes Germany a far
>bet=
>ter source of safety information.
>
>If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on the acceleration
>p=
>hase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation.
>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79580374/Acceleration.pdf
>
>
>
>

Hi Bill,

Did you read Paul Ruskin's analysis of German and UK winch
launching accidents, which was number 66 in this thread. He
concluded that there was no significant difference between fatal
and serious accident rates between the two countries. I note that
Germany had about 4 accidents that came into the stall and flick
roll category while the UK only had one. Germany has about 5
times as many glider pilots as the UK. About 2/3rd's of UK glider
launches are by winch. As Skylaunch has sold many winches to
Germany and Tost to the UK, I assume that the winches are
similar and give the same rates of acceleration in both countries.

BTW, before we had winches at our club, we used to wire launch
by autotow, where the ground run acceleration was REALLY
slow, at least 10 seconds to lift off. I don't remember there
being any ground loop or cartwheel accidents on take off in that
era.

Derek Copeland

At 17:47 13 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry
Walsh wrote:
>> Fred,
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know
equally
>>=20
>> arrogant people of many different national origins. I was
simply
>commenti=
>ng
>>=20
>> that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to
be an
>>=20
>> expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to
accept any other
>>=20
>> opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant.
>
>I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all
congratulate each
>=
>other for fuzzy thinking.
>
>Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every
time you screw
>up=
>, it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those screw-
ups are based
>on=
> institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that
nonsense, it makes
>=
>me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the 2013
Glider
>Flying=
> Handbook.
>
>The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my own
imagination,
>i=
>t's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains
about the best
>inf=
>ormation on winch launch safety available.
>
>The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches". That's
true.
>Compare=
>d to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany, the
UK doesn't do
>=
>many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes
Germany a far
>bet=
>ter source of safety information.
>
>If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on the
acceleration
>p=
>hase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation.
>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79580374/Acceleration.p
df
>
>
>
>

I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.

The Dropbox link has changed. See:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79580374/Acceleration.pdf

I can't comment on why your experience is what it is, but the BGA is clearly concerned about "cartwheel" accidents.

Aero tow uses a nose hook so the consequences of a wing drop are much less.

With the glider achieving flying speed in 3 - 4 seconds that's not much to distinguish why earlier or later drop is worse. It's bad whenever it happens.

On Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:35:38 PM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote:
> OK Bill, here is my problem with your argument that all our problems are
>
> basically due to too slow acceleration.
>
>
>
> 1. I have not seen or experienced these slow acceleration launches and they
>
> are certainly not the norm at any site at which I have flown recently.
>
>
>
> 2. I have also auto towed (some years ago) where the acceleration is by
>
> definition slow, I never saw a wing drop come close to an accident.
>
>
>
> 3. The same applies to aerotows, slow acceleration, here I have seen wing
>
> drops and witnessed people releasing but no cartwheels.
>
>
>
> 4. The reason these wing drops have been fatal is that they occur just
>
> before the glider ls ready to fly. in my mind this implies that the
>
> acceleration was fast since the glider apparently goes from insufficient
>
> aileron control to flying speed too quickly for the pilot to react. I
>
> think perhaps , as Don said that the problem is actually yaw induced roll.
>
>
>
> Based on what you say we in the UK have a much worse safety record than the
>
> Germans, so accepting this I agree that we are apparently not getting
>
> something right. I do not agree with your analysis and you have shown no
>
> readiness to accept that there may be another different problem. This is
>
> what I mean by arrogance. If as you say everybody outside UK agrees with
>
> your argument why have none of them posted here to say so.
>
>
>
> I think it is a problem caused by individual pilot errors rather than our
>
> procedures. Why I am not sure although I do have some thoughts regarding
>
> pilot currency.
>
>
>
> Terry Walsh
>
>
>
>
>
> At 17:47 13 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote:
>
> >> Fred,
>
> >>=20
>
> >>=20
>
> >>=20
>
> >> I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally
>
> >>=20
>
> >> arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply
>
> >commenti=
>
> >ng
>
> >>=20
>
> >> that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an
>
> >>=20
>
> >> expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any
>
> other
>
> >>=20
>
> >> opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant.
>
> >
>
> >I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all congratulate
>
> each
>
> >=
>
> >other for fuzzy thinking.
>
> >
>
> >Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every time you screw
>
> >up=
>
> >, it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those screw-ups are based
>
> >on=
>
> > institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that nonsense, it
>
> makes
>
> >=
>
> >me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the 2013 Glider
>
> >Flying=
>
> > Handbook.
>
> >
>
> >The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my own imagination,
>
> >i=
>
> >t's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains about the best
>
> >inf=
>
> >ormation on winch launch safety available.
>
> >
>
> >The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches". That's true.
>
> >Compare=
>
> >d to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany, the UK doesn't
>
> do
>
> >=
>
> >many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes Germany a far
>
> >bet=
>
> >ter source of safety information.
>
> >
>
> >If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on the acceleration
>
> >p=
>
> >hase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation.
>
> >https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79580374/Acceleration.pdf
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >

Many earlier gliders in the UK are not fitted with nose hooks, just
belly hooks, but we still don't get any cartwheel accidents on
aerotow. There is a slightly increased risk of tug upsets due to
the glider trying to 'winch launch' after take off if the pilot allows
the glider to get too high (so still a good case for keeping your
hand on the release knob during the early stages of an
aerotow). Likewise wire launching by autotow on the belly hook
did not cause cartwheel accidents, despite the slower ground run
acceleration. The difference with high powered winch launches
is that you are putting in much more energy much more quickly,
so the consequences of a wing drop are much more serious.
What happens is that the wingtip contacts the ground, drags,
causes the glider to yaw, so that the other wing speeds up and
produces more lift, adding roll to the yaw and the glider lifts off
with one wing still on the ground. Then the other wing gets up
into the wind gradient and produces even more lift, and at this
point you are history. The safety message is 'keep your wings
level and pull off immediately if you can't'.

Derek Copeland



At 02:09 14 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>I can't comment on why your experience is what it is, but the
BGA is
>clearly concerned about "cartwheel" accidents.
>
>Aero tow uses a nose hook so the consequences of a wing
drop are much less.
>
>With the glider achieving flying speed in 3 - 4 seconds that's
not much to
>distinguish why earlier or later drop is worse. It's bad
whenever it
>happens.
>
>On Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:35:38 PM UTC-6, Terry Walsh
wrote:
>> OK Bill, here is my problem with your argument that all our
problems are
>>
>> basically due to too slow acceleration.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. I have not seen or experienced these slow acceleration
launches and
>they
>>
>> are certainly not the norm at any site at which I have flown
recently.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2. I have also auto towed (some years ago) where the
acceleration is by
>>
>> definition slow, I never saw a wing drop come close to an
accident.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. The same applies to aerotows, slow acceleration, here I
have seen wing
>>
>> drops and witnessed people releasing but no cartwheels.
>>
>>
>>
>> 4. The reason these wing drops have been fatal is that they
occur just
>>
>> before the glider ls ready to fly. in my mind this implies that
the
>>
>> acceleration was fast since the glider apparently goes from
insufficient
>>
>> aileron control to flying speed too quickly for the pilot to
react. I
>>
>> think perhaps , as Don said that the problem is actually yaw
induced
>roll.
>>
>>
>>
>> Based on what you say we in the UK have a much worse
safety record than
>the
>>
>> Germans, so accepting this I agree that we are apparently
not getting
>>
>> something right. I do not agree with your analysis and you
have shown no
>>
>> readiness to accept that there may be another different
problem. This is
>>
>> what I mean by arrogance. If as you say everybody outside
UK agrees with
>>
>> your argument why have none of them posted here to say
so.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think it is a problem caused by individual pilot errors rather
than our
>>
>> procedures. Why I am not sure although I do have some
thoughts
>regarding
>>
>> pilot currency.
>>
>>
>>
>> Terry Walsh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 17:47 13 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry
Walsh wrote:
>>
>> >> Fred,
>>
>> >>=20
>>
>> >>=20
>>
>> >>=20
>>
>> >> I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I
know equally
>>
>> >>=20
>>
>> >> arrogant people of many different national origins. I was
simply
>>
>> >commenti=
>>
>> >ng
>>
>> >>=20
>>
>> >> that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be
considered to be an
>>
>> >>=20
>>
>> >> expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to
accept any
>>
>> other
>>
>> >>=20
>>
>> >> opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all
congratulate
>>
>> each
>>
>> >=
>>
>> >other for fuzzy thinking.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every
time you screw
>>
>> >up=
>>
>> >, it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those
screw-ups are based
>>
>> >on=
>>
>> > institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that
nonsense, it
>>
>> makes
>>
>> >=
>>
>> >me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the
2013 Glider
>>
>> >Flying=
>>
>> > Handbook.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my
own imagination,
>
>>
>> >i=
>>
>> >t's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains
about the best
>>
>> >inf=
>>
>> >ormation on winch launch safety available.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches".
That's true.
>>
>> >Compare=
>>
>> >d to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany,
the UK doesn't
>>
>> do
>>
>> >=
>>
>> >many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes
Germany a far
>>
>> >bet=
>>
>> >ter source of safety information.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on
the
>acceleration
>>
>> >p=
>>
>> >hase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation.
>>
>>
>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79580374/Acceleration.p
df
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>
>

I don't get instructions about how to fly safely from RAS comments.

On 14/10/13 03:03, Bill D wrote:
> I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.
>
> The Dropbox link has changed. See:
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79580374/Acceleration.pdf

On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:03:44 AM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:
> I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.
>

Which would be an admirable position Bill, except that I took the trouble to go and find the accident reports from the BFU and BGA and posted a list of winch accidents in my comment, including sources and accident report numbers.

The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot had much the same chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in a winch accident.

Perhaps you'd let us know whether you now accept that conclusion, rather than claiming that UK winch launches are 10 times more dangerous?


Paul

At 02:03 14 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.
>
>The Dropbox link has changed. See:
>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79580374/Acceleration.p
df
>

Maybe the ancient Gehrlein winches you have in the US are not
powerful enough to cause uncontrollable pitch ups, but we did
have a problem with this when we first had powerful V8 Tost
winches. K8's and the like would rocket up almost vertically
before (usually) the weak link broke. Fortunately none of them
flicked and all the pilots involved were quite switched on and
managed to get the nose down and land safely. The problem
was largely solved by opening the throttle a bit more gently at
the start of the launch. The nice thing about the Skylaunch
winches we have now is that they deliver the right amount of
power for the glider type being launched, so you get the same
ground run time for all types. So one less type conversion issue.

The acceleration induced pitch up effect is only transitory by the
way. During the ground run it is constrained by the tailwheel,
and once the glider is safely established in the full climb the pull
line and the c of g become more closely aligned. The dangerous
bit is the rotation! If the mainwheel lifts off first, the glider
pitches up to a steep angle and then the tailwheel lifts off and no
longer constrains the pitch angle, it is at this point the wings may
stall, and if any yaw is present may flick roll. The safety
message is don't over-accelerate lightweight gliders and control
the rotation rate so that it is not more than 10 degrees per
second.

Derek Copeland

On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:43:07 AM UTC-6, Paul Ruskin wrote:
> On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:03:44 AM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:
>
> > I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Which would be an admirable position Bill, except that I took the trouble to go and find the accident reports from the BFU and BGA and posted a list of winch accidents in my comment, including sources and accident report numbers.
>
>
>
> The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot had much the same chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in a winch accident.
>
>
>
> Perhaps you'd let us know whether you now accept that conclusion, rather than claiming that UK winch launches are 10 times more dangerous?
>
>
>
>
>
> Paul

Yes, I read your ramble. The operable statistic is number of accidents per number of launches - very simple and not included in your post.

For 2011 (The numbers just look worse for the UK the further back one goes.)
The Germans suffered one accident every 180,000 launches
The UK suffered one every 16,000 launches.

That's better than 10:1 and the number can't be twisted to show parity.

Bill,

You have still not confirmed if you are in fact the highly regarded Bill
Daniels?

I hope you are not, because each time you post, you loose any credibility
by being rude and obnoxious. Why is it necessary to make statements such as
"Yes, I read your ramble"?

If you are the "real Bill Daniels" please let us know.

If you are not, I am sure the "real Bill Daniels" will be royally ****ed
off that you have been letting the wider population of the gliding
community assume that you are whilst blighting his good name!

Justin Craig

At 13:43 14 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:43:07 AM UTC-6, Paul Ruskin wrote:
>> On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:03:44 AM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:
>>
>> > I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.
>>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Which would be an admirable position Bill, except that I took the
trouble
>to go and find the accident reports from the BFU and BGA and posted a
list
>of winch accidents in my comment, including sources and accident report
>numbers.
>>
>>
>>
>> The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot had much the
same
>chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in a winch
>accident.
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps you'd let us know whether you now accept that conclusion,
rather
>than claiming that UK winch launches are 10 times more dangerous?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>
>Yes, I read your ramble. The operable statistic is number of accidents
per
>number of launches - very simple and not included in your post.
>
>For 2011 (The numbers just look worse for the UK the further back one
>goes.)
>The Germans suffered one accident every 180,000 launches
>The UK suffered one every 16,000 launches.
>
>That's better than 10:1 and the number can't be twisted to show parity.
>
>

On Saturday, October 12, 2013 2:12:45 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 15:58 12 October 2013, wrote:
>
> >For a comprehensive discussion of this topic, search RAS for Fatality at
>
> >PGC. Read the post by Bill.
>
>
>
> By all means read both references but I implore you to ignore the advice of
>
> Bill, he is speaking about something he knows very little about.

Don -

What, specifically, is wrong with the article? Keeping my hand on the release during the ground roll has saved me from several potential ground loops. I have seen experienced contest pilots ground loop at contests because they could not release quickly. Others have died because of this. During the ground roll, pilots must be ready to release quickly - with their hand on the release - not trying to find it.

Bill

Paul did allow for the greater number of glider pilots and winch
launches in Germany and his figures are for fatal and serious
injury accidents only. As I have pointed out to you before, the
BGA accident statistics include all minor accidents and incidents
that are even vaguely related to winch launching and which do
not cause death or serious injury. There are probably 10 such
incidents for every serious accident which probably explains the
difference. There are lies, damn lies, and your interpretation of
accident!

Derek Copeland


At 13:43 14 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
>On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:43:07 AM UTC-6, Paul Ruskin
wrote:
>> On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:03:44 AM UTC+1, Bill D
wrote:
>>
>> > I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.
>>
>>
>> Which would be an admirable position Bill, except that I took
the trouble
>to go and find the accident reports from the BFU and BGA and
posted a list
>of winch accidents in my comment, including sources and
accident report
>numbers.
>>
>>
>>
>> The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot had
much the same
>chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in a
winch
>accident.
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps you'd let us know whether you now accept that
conclusion, rather
>than claiming that UK winch launches are 10 times more
dangerous?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul
>
>Yes, I read your ramble. The operable statistic is number of
accidents per
>number of launches - very simple and not included in your
post.
>
>For 2011 (The numbers just look worse for the UK the further
back one
>goes.)
>The Germans suffered one accident every 180,000 launches
>The UK suffered one every 16,000 launches.
>
>That's better than 10:1 and the number can't be twisted to
show parity.
>
>

On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:43:37 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:

> Yes, I read your ramble. The operable statistic is number of accidents per number of launches - very simple and not included in your post.
>

OK. I note that you've avoided my question, which was whether we you agree with "The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot had much the same chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in a winch accident. "

So, I'll ask again - do you agree with that conclusion? I've provided all the data you need, and its source, and the calculation is simple.

Whether you think that's a good "operable statistic" or not is different. I happen to think it is - because then we don't confuse different reporting of incidents.

Paul

There is some under-reporting of minor accidents in the UK, and I
expect in almost every country. There is no way of knowing the
extent, but if for example a German poster here were to admit to
knowledge of a minor accident not featured in their national figures,
it would confirm the issue in principle.

I believe that the figures for fatal accidents are unlikely to be
underreported, however. “Serious� accidents might have different
interpretations in different countries; I know of no way to be certain
of that.

So the only reliable statistics seem to me to be fatalities per
100,000 winch launches, which for the UK ought to include the air
cadet figures (no fatalities). I do not know if German data includes
an equivalent to air cadet data which would not be in DAeC
statistics. Perhaps somebody could advise on that.

Furthermore, the only fatalities relevant to these discussions are
those due to the winch launch itself, and not to (for example)
spinning off a final turn at the end of a flight that started with a
winch launch. Paul Ruskin’s analysis sought to do that, it seems to
me, by summarising the actual events.

Chris N

At 15:18 14 October 2013, Paul Ruskin wrote:
>On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:43:37 PM UTC+1, Bill D
wrote:
>
>> Yes, I read your ramble. The operable statistic is number of
accidents
>per number of launches - very simple and not included in your
post.
>>
>
>OK. I note that you've avoided my question, which was
whether we you agree
>with "The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot
had much the
>same chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in
a winch
>accident. "
>
>So, I'll ask again - do you agree with that conclusion? I've
provided all
>the data you need, and its source, and the calculation is
simple.
>
>Whether you think that's a good "operable statistic" or not is
different.
>I happen to think it is - because then we don't confuse
different reporting
>of incidents.
>
>Paul
>

There can be no doubt when an injury or a fatality occurs and
such an event should always be reported and recorded in
gliding developed countries. I think we can all agree that no
country will over-report death and injury data. Therefore the
only way that comparison of death and injury rates between two
countries could *not* be based on valid operable statistics is if
you were to believe that one country is under-reporting them -
which would be an interesting propositon to put to the Germans.

John Galloway

John, Paul’s figures are for fatals and “serious� injuries, not all
injuries, AIUI. I would not be surprised if the definition of “serious�

differs.

Chris N

Definitions are important for statistical analysis. If a glider crashes
after flying a circuit from an 800ft cable break, is it a winching
accident or an approach and landing accident? If it spins after
successfully completing a winch launch, is that a winching accident
or a stall/spin accident? I would think that a serious injury would be
broken bones, head injury, deep lacerations and anything that
requires hospital treatment. So a bruised backside or a grazed
finger shouldn't really count.

Derek Copeland

At 16:22 14 October 2013, Chris Nicholas wrote:
>John, Paul’s figures are for fatals and “serious� injuries, not all

>injuries, AIUI. I would not be surprised if the definition of
“serious��
>
>differs.
>
>Chris N
>
>
>

Bill D has gone remarkably quiet!


At 15:18 14 October 2013, Paul Ruskin wrote:
>On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:43:37 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:
>
>> Yes, I read your ramble. The operable statistic is number of
accidents
>per number of launches - very simple and not included in your
post.
>>
>
>OK. I note that you've avoided my question, which was
whether we you agree
>with "The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot
had much the
>same chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in a
winch
>accident. "
>
>So, I'll ask again - do you agree with that conclusion? I've
provided all
>the data you need, and its source, and the calculation is
simple.
>
>Whether you think that's a good "operable statistic" or not is
different.
>I happen to think it is - because then we don't confuse different
reporting
>of incidents.
>
>Paul
>
>

At 21:07 15 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
>Bill D has gone remarkably quiet!

Damn! The rest of us were hoping you had gone into hibernation too.

At 08:12 16 October 2013, Z Goudie wrote:
>At 21:07 15 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
>>Bill D has gone remarkably quiet!
>
>Damn! The rest of us were hoping you had gone into hibernation too.
>
>
Well it is raining

I've just read the latest BGA pamphlet on safer aerotowing.
They do recommend holding the release knob in case of lateral
upsets due to wing drops during the ground run, and vertical
upsets once in the air.

BTW, I did £5.5k of damage to my glider a few years ago after
dropping a wing and ground-looping it during an aerotow
retrieve. The fact that the glider ended up being dragged
sideways by the tug with the rope still attached probably didn't
help. An immediate release might done, but my glider is one of
those with the release knob behind the stick and I couldn't
immediately get to it with the stick hard over. I fitted an
extended cable to the release knob after that.

Derek C

At 16:36 04 October 2013, wrote:
>I have seen several videos on youtube lately where the glider
pilot holds
>t=
>he tow release handle during all parts tow. I've been told it is
taught
>th=
>is way by some in the UK. Sorry to pick on you folks on the
other side of
>=
>the pond as I love your country and can't wait to come over
and glide with
>=
>you in the next few years. ;) =20
>
>It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is a
recipe for
>disa=
>ster eventually.
>
>We have all hit big bumps and turbulence down low on tow.
Why risk
>accident=
>ally pulling the release at 50ft or 100ft in the air? If you are
saying
>it=
> is so that you can immediately pull the handle if something
goes bad on
>to=
>w, it might not be a good enough reason due to the risks of a
accidental
>re=
>lease. Keep your hand on your knee or the flaps handle right
next to the
>r=
>elease and I bet you can pull it just as quickly and you don't
have to
>worr=
>y about messing up a perfectly good tow down low. Am I
missing something
>he=
>re?
>
>Your thoughts? This just seems like a big safety mistake and I
would hate
>f=
>or people who see these videos and then think it is the right
and correct
>t=
>hing to do.
>
>Have fun and fly safe,
>Bruno - B4
>www.youtube.com/bviv
>

On Friday, October 4, 2013 11:36:19 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I have seen several videos on youtube lately where the glider pilot holds the tow release handle during all parts tow. I've been told it is taught this way by some in the UK. Sorry to pick on you folks on the other side of the pond as I love your country and can't wait to come over and glide with you in the next few years. ;)
>
>
>
> It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is a recipe for disaster eventually.
>
>
>
> We have all hit big bumps and turbulence down low on tow. Why risk accidentally pulling the release at 50ft or 100ft in the air? If you are saying it is so that you can immediately pull the handle if something goes bad on tow, it might not be a good enough reason due to the risks of a accidental release. Keep your hand on your knee or the flaps handle right next to the release and I bet you can pull it just as quickly and you don't have to worry about messing up a perfectly good tow down low. Am I missing something here?
>
>
>
> Your thoughts? This just seems like a big safety mistake and I would hate for people who see these videos and then think it is the right and correct thing to do.
>
>
>
> Have fun and fly safe,
>
> Bruno - B4
>
> www.youtube.com/bviv

I teach holding the tow release during the ground run portion of takeoff based on actual experience of pilots being unable to tear their attention away from the problem out the window. The assumption that having your hand "near" the tow release is adequate has not proven useful in multiple incident scenarios that my students* have demonstrated during actual flying. All humans exhibit significant narrowing of focus in a crises. Locating the tow release in an actual emergency can be a lengthy process. Pilots enjoy thinking they are "sharp," have rapid responses, and are capable of logical thinking. This is somewhat true when they are not under stress and severely compromised when they are.
There is no downside to a premature or inadvertent release during the ground run. Even on a short field the towplane merely does a lonely pattern and lands. Runways are narrow or have lights and other obstructions on the sides, and a takeoff gone wrong happens so fast as to often be unrecoverable. The speed with which you can make the action stop can make the difference between a conversation and an accident. Pilot induced oscillation during takeoff is another scenario where quick release can help stop that action.
Every field will have a length that determines when your hand should be removed to avoid the possibility of inadvertent release. This is not hard to determine in practice. But generally, once the glider is just airborne in stable level flight and the tow is proceeding normally, your hand can be removed.

*These situations happen to experienced pilots so don't assume that "student" means an ab-initio trainee. We are all students.